End results of war?!?

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KarateKid
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End results of war?!?

Post by KarateKid »

So what is the end result of this Iraq war? What if the US and its Allies goes in and wins. Wins how? Either by getting Saddam to leave ore for Saddam to raise his hands in defeat or by killing Saddam... what happens next?

Will Iraq transition to a new diplomatic governement run by the laws and constitutions of US and Britan?

It this is so, its almost better that there isn't any other support from other countries who will be vieing for their government to run Iraq. Now that the UN does not support this gives them no rights as US and Britan take over. Am I right?

Will stocks then strengthen? Will gas prices go down? Will Bush be reelected?

The current polls shows that America is in support of Bush's decision. It doesn't seem that way does it?

Does anybody know? ;)
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Very good questions, and there are no simple answers.
Will Iraq transition to a new diplomatic governement run by the laws and constitutions of US and Britan?

It this is so, its almost better that there isn't any other support from other countries who will be vieing for their government to run Iraq. Now that the UN does not support this gives them no rights as US and Britan take over. Am I right?
I'll try to be brutally frank here.

We do not want to get into the business of running Iraq. We do not want to install any puppet leader. Take a look at the post Shah Iran to see what can happen. What we really want to do is teach the Iraqi people how to set up their own democratic government. The process will look something like what is going on in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban government.

The Iraqis themselves will have to decide whether to form a secular government, or form something like a theocracy. Personally I believe that when you look at how badly theocracies treat people in Islamic governments, it's all the more reason to tell the Christians to go home here in the U.S. I am a firm believer in Jefferson's ideal of freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion. But...I digress a bit. The Iraqis will have to figure all that out. And it won't be easy. You have mostly Sunni Kurdish Muslims in the north, mostly Sunni Arab Muslims in central Iraq, and mostly Shiite Arab Muslims in the south. Those folks are not fond of each other. It's all the more reason for them to adopt Jefferson's principles but... It should be their decision.

We might want the rest of the world to join in rebuilding Iraq, and we might not. The pros for getting them involved is that they (the UN et al) will help pay the tab. The cons come along with the influence and petty bickering. While I do not condone us (Britain and the US) overly influencing the politics of Iraq once they are on their feet, I'm all for US and British industries winning 100% of the rebuilding contracts should the US and the British put their butts on the line in the battlefield. To the victor goes the spoils, even when the victor is benevolent. France and Russia - the two countries with the greatest economic ties to Iraq today - can go to Hades. Their protests and activisim (mostly the French) have nothing to do with loving peace. It's all about money - period. France had its chance. They can take their contracts and debts and eat them. But don't ask me what I REALLY think...

The greatest benefit to the war in Iraq is what it will do to the entire area. This could potentially do to dictatorships in the Middle East what the fall of the Berlin Wall did to Communism in the world. Representational governments are less likely to starve their people in order to build war machines to hurt other people for selfish reasons. Representational governements - in my opinion - are less likely to get involved in funding terrorism. If the Middle East slowly converted to representational governments, the world would likely be a much better place.

As far as the economy, well this is my opinion. I think you have seen the peak of gas prices. As in Desert Storm, you will likely see gas prices drop on the first day of the war. NPR Market Watch pointed out that this time around, that might be happening a little earlier than in 1991. The stock market and the economy here are going to be in the pits for a while, but will recover. The Market is about as undervalued as it's going to get. When it goes up, it'll take about a half year to a year for the economy to follow. Now is the time to sell your real estate if you are thinking about doing that. When the Market goes up, this "irrational exhuberence" in the real estate market will go bust in much the same way that the tech market recently crashed. This is a broad pattern sometimes called "sector rotation." Basically investment money will find the best deal, wherever that is.

George W is going to have a tough time getting reelected. The economy will still be in the stink department come summer and fall of 2004. But the problem for the Democrats is that they have no vision and/or a true leader. They may squander a big opportunity if they don't find a good leader. Such is politics...

And that's my opinion, FWIW (a little more than 2 cents... ;) ).

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Note:

I made a few assumptions above:

1) The US/Britain can keep Saddam from blowing up all his oil wells.

2) There isn't much in the way of consequences of the whole weapons-of-mass-destruction thing.

Saddam could burn Iraq, nuke/gas everyone, and leave. Actually that's what the Russians did to Moscow when Napoleon invaded. Napoleon won...but lost. He left all his equipment and walked home, because there was nothing left to support his army.

It wouldn't be THAT bad if Saddam did mischief but... It could get interesting, to say the least.

- Bill
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Post by Dana Sheets »

"We do not want to get into the business of running Iraq."

Nope - but we're happy to bid out the $200 billion reconstruction costs to U.S. firms first. The congress can't even pass a budget because reconstruction costs would be the largest line item after entitlements & the defense dept.

According (what I heard on NPR) to the international rules of war, as an occupying country we are accountable for EVERYTHING - the health and welfare of all people in that country until a new government is up and running and we stopy occupying the country.

Everything includes - police, health care system (hospitals, medicines, etc), education of children, food supply, water supply, energy (i.e. oil) supply, trade, elections, etc.

Everything is expensive.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Your points are well taken, Dana. Understand though that this can be bad and this can be good.

If you remember your history, WPA projects and the like put people back to work and brought vitality back to the U.S. economy after The Great Depression. Economists talk about a "multiplicity" factor (or something like that) when it comes to giving money to a certain sector of the population and watching it go from hand to hand to hand. Basically some of the "debits" come back as "credits" in our own economy when the government spends money on people. More income for everyone means more taxes for Uncle Sam.

Same thing for Iraq. If Hussein doesn't trash Iraq too badly, then Britain and the US can make out big in the long run. Yes we pay big up front in reconstruction, but that could lead to long term contracts for US and British industry, which could prove to be a big investment in both their economic futures. The smart businessman gives away the razor, and reaps long-term profits from the razor blades.

Understand that this is ignoring the human factor here. This kind of talk may seem inhuman to some, but is vital to the success of the whole endeavor. Ultimately the whole thing must be financed, or both Britain and the US are going down the economic tank. Right now the UN is washing its hands of it all, so it only makes pragmatic sense for the US and Britain to be nabbing all the reconstruction opportunities. That's just economic survival - period.

Ask the US colonists (circa 1700s) what happens when you try to tax people for the cost of a war...

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Post by Mary S »

I see the financial figures popping up. Any idea on the numbers regarding a body count at the end of the day(s)?
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Post by KarateKid »

I hope the body count isn't great. The statement needs to be made once Bush goes to war and hopefully it'll end faster than projected.

If we, as America only lose 148 lives as a result of the Gulf War then it will be a success. Loss of life already - just by the helicopter crash and training - is enough death.

I don't like results of war because of the deaths (who does?)... but if we must, we must. And 148 brave souls gave their lives for America and hopefuly no more will have to perish in this one.
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Post by Panther »

I'm just suprised... shocked?... that anyone would think NPR is an unbiased news source! :roll:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mary

It depends...

* It depends on whether or not Saddam unleashes his stores of anthrax, serin gas, etc., etc.

* It depends on how much what is left of Saddam's army wants to engage in urban warfare. If the US/Britain strike very fast and very hard, they could demoralize the troops and make the war end fast. That is the hope.

* It depends on whether or not there are terrorist events after the troops enter the country. One kid with a bomb can do a lot of damage, as with the Palestinians.

* It depends on how many fronts other than the Iraq/Kuwait border that troops and hardware are able to enter Iraq.

* It depends on whether or not Hussein elects to strike preemptively, and with what.

* It depends on how many "human shields" that are put at key locations.

* It depends on how quickly Britain/US can end the war and reconstruct the country.

In the whole body count thing, remember that more Iraqis died from 12 years of sanctions (and Hussein's diversion of scarce resources for his army) than will likely die from the conflict. It's an interesting statistic to consider in the whole scheme of things. The faster Iraq is back on its feet as a full participant of the world community, the sooner the killing will stop.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I'm just suprised... shocked?... that anyone would think NPR is an unbiased news source!
There are no unbiased news sources. But as far as news sources go, they and the WSJ are about as vanilla as you are going to get (IMHO).

The proper thing to do then is to quote your source and let things stand as is.

Good to hear from you, Panther!

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The 64billion dollar question

Post by gmattson »

Who will control the oil while we "reconstruct"?
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Good thing we "honest people" are going to be guarding the black gold, and not "those other guys..." ;)

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Post by RACastanet »

NPR is vanilla? I'm with Panther on this one. Even worse, NPR gets taxpayer funding.

As for the WSJ, I agree they are a good source of news and information.

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Good Intel

Post by Topos »

The Wall Street Journal has probably the least varnished Intel of all the Papers. It has always matched what is known in theCommuinty.

The New York Crimes (sic) has migrated to being the Isvestia or Pravda on the Hudson. Their anti-American, pro 'Citizens of the World' 'we should not be the only Super Power (Madeline Not-so Bright Clinton incompetent) is redolent with neo-socialist venom. (I know, I should not be so inhibited, I need to express my true feelings, but it is hard to open up [GRIN!!])

I was almost 4 when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. I still remember seeing the headlines on the Boston Post, "Japs Attack Pearl Harbor". No American, as the whiners like Tom Daschle and Ted Kennedy ('my father did not want to go to war with wonderful Germany either') asked "President Roosvelt, tell us the cost and number of casualities first before we decide whether to defend ourselves, and maybe invite more attacks from the Japs".

The liberals have never asked the cost of anything before so I must conclude that either they are too incompetent to see the cost of 9-11 or they are willing to sacrifice our safety so as to regain power. Both are despicable acts.

"Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute". Sure knocked the stuffing out of the Barbary Coast Pirates (the Camel Jock SadHams of the day).


Most of us on these Fora want to remain Citizens Of The USA, not of the world as NPR (National Politburo Radio?) want to migrate to. Otherwise why do all the 3d world folks flock here? DUHHHH,

Oh, well, indeed God does Bless America, look who He help make President during these times. I am so happy that GWB did not invent the Internet and create Global warming, but got a busness degree to hone his focused leadership skills. Sure must gall our enemies, AND the foreigners outside the Democrat Party [grin]
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Panther and Rich

NPR is a whole host of programs. I quoted Market Watch (half hour program every evening). This business newsprogram is far from any corner you two are trying to paint it in.

Be careful with the use of that broad brush! ;)

- Bill
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