Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

[Jake Steinmann]

This is something that occured to me while in the shower the other day. It's actually something that's been bothering me for a little while now.

The great swordsman Musashi wrote "Do nothing which is of no use."

In Uechi-ryu, we practice (eventually) eight kata. My question is, why?

I have repeatedly seen statements along the lines of "There are only three kata in Uechi", or "Uechi only has three real kata", or most disturbingly "the extra kata were added to hold students attention"!

Now, in so far as Uechi ranking goes, I wear a lowly green belt (with a nifty piece of electrical tape), so I am by no means a master. That's actually what bothers me.

As a student, reading these statements, my only question is, why are we bothering with the extra kata?

To hold student interest? Come on...as a student, I find the notion that I need to have extra crap added to hold my attention insulting. Either I'll study, or I won't. Don't give me extraneous garbage just to keep me entertained.

If these kata are really as unimportant as people seem to think, why not replace them with other drills, exercises, or whatever that would better benefit us as Uechi-ka?

If they are an essential part of the system, then why do we need to keep degrading them?

I am, by no means suggesting that these kata HAVE to be removed. I have neither that much authority, nor audacity. What I am suggesting is that if the attitudes I've seen about them are true..maybe their use ought to be re-evaluated.

Thoughts?

jake

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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan

[paul giella]

Jake,
I' not sure we need more than three kata... why Kanei felt the need to develop the other five has never been entirely clear to me, since there are no unique moves in any of them that do not appear at least once in the main three. Teasers, maybe? A little teaspoonful to get someone fired up for the big ones? Part of the traditional mystique of the martial arts? I don't know. If I weren't teaching and testing students who will be held responsible for the usual corpus of knowledge I would not feel compelled to do other than the main three.

[Jake Steinmann]

Sensei Giella,
That's exactly my point. I get the impression that there are a lot of other teachers out there who feel the same as you. So why do continue to teach and practice something that you don't find very valuable.
Consider, the Wing Chun system, which bears a very strong resemblence to Uechi, teaches only 3 kata, and it's one of the most widely reknowned systems in the world. Extra kata clearly doesn't help popularity.
What about the other sensei out there? Do you feel there's a value in these extra kata? What is it?

Jake

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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan

[BILLY B]

Jake,

I tried to post earlier but screwed something up and erased the whole thing! Too bad, it was pretty long and involved. Long story short - I disagree.

As Mr. Giella stated there are many COMPONENTS of more advanced kata in the "new" kata. For instance the slide in wauke/shoken, then slide back with one shoken on top of the other sequence in kanshiwa.... is also found in sanseirui! So what? So.. you are learning sanseirui kata for almost a decade before you are formaly "taught" it. It helps a lot when you eventually try to tackle the big daddy of all Uechi kata.

[student]

I have no dog in this fight, but I offer one small point of clarification: Wing Chun has 6 kuen: 3 unarmed kuen, 1 mook jong (wooden man) kuen, 1 butterfly swords kuen, 1 pole kuen.

student

[SEAN C]

I came across this passage in the teaching and training manual that my teacher published:

"Kanei, with the help of his senior students, created five bridging kata intended to hold student interest, to supplement the three main kata from China, and to TEACH THE SKILLS NEEDED FOR FREE-STYLE SPARRING." Hmm....

[This message has been edited by SEAN C (edited April 18, 2000).]

[Jake Steinmann]

Student,
You're correct. I should say that Wing Chun has three empty handed forms that do not require a training device.
Uechi itself doesn't teach weapons use, so there's no comparison there.

"So.. you are learning sanseirui kata for almost a decade before you are formaly "taught" it. It helps a lot when you eventually try to tackle the big daddy of all Uechi kata."
So what did people do before the advent of these extra kata? They had to learn these components somewhere, right?
A decade is a long time to be practicing something, particularly when one is largely taught that it isn't useful. Tony said something interesting at the PDR seminar that stuck with me "You can't get time back".
Sure, we can learn those components from extra kata, but we could learn them in other ways as well. Heck, we could learn them from that kata. If all we're learning from these kata is the same thing we learn in later kata, it seems a little redundant to me.
Sean: Out of curiousity, who's your instructor? what's the book?
"intended to hold student interest" - As I said...to me, insulting.
"TEACH THE SKILLS NEEDED FOR FREE-STYLE SPARRING." - That disturbs me even more! Does that mean our original three kata don't teach us these skills?
I would assume not.

Jake

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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan

[SEAN C]

Jake,

I just threw that out there because it had to do with the topic you brought up, not because I think "my" teacher has better insight than anyone else. I hesitate to mention names, if they can only inspire political or idealogical nitpicking. The book I mention was only created as an inexpensive and readily accessible guideline for the class, and not as a substitute for other, more authoritative volumes. it's not published commercially. Besides, what f'king difference does it make?

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sean

[BILLY B]

Jake,

You wrote: "It seems a bit redundant to me"

Our good Doctor wrote,

"Most of us require specific motor learning and can not spend the whole day repeating a kata."

It IS redundant man! If you think about it, they must have broken seisan and sanseirui down and repeated movements until they were ingrained in students in the old days of shushi"v"a, right? The "extra" kata do the same thing, in disguise, its genius! The curriculum is designed to hide the monotony of constant repetition.

How many of your techniques will actually bear fruit under the stress of combat? Which technique would you use if your life depended on it?

The one you have practiced eight billion times, period.

Bottom line is keep working hard at any kata you choose. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out sanchin.

[Rick Wilson]

Previously I would have agreed with you that we only really need the three main kata, but I would have also tossed in Seichin which is also a main one in my book.

However, over the passed while I have been altering how I approach and perform my kata. I have found far more in the "bridging" kata than ever before.

The only kata I currently distinctly dislike is Konchin. Can't seem to getting working the way I want and I do not see the value added. But that too may change as I learn more.

Rick

[LenTesta]

Billy B-san

Good Post!

How many of us practice our movements of the katas as we free style spar? I see many under ranks (pre-dan) use whatever movements they have learned in kumite, to fend off attacks, but hardly ever use the movements in Kanshiwa, or Konshu, or Seichin. The EXTRA katas that Kanei formed out of the original three add a new movement for each to learn and practice. Students should perform these new movements when free style sparring to “try them out” to see what will work on various attacks. I stand up and take notice when a student whom has just made Sankyu, uses the “hawk chasing the sparrow block” (forgive me, I do not know the correct name) from Seichin when he is sparring.

As a pre dan student, myself I could not wait patiently for the next rank, so I could learn a new kata and new moves to try out while I was sparring. I would learn the new moves first, practice them repeatedly, and then perform the kata. Because most of the moves were redundant, I was able to perform it correctly after about two days. The new kata, with it is new and familiar moves were in a different order. These new moves will work in tandem with other moves.

While sparring, it is good practice to key on a certain attack, and try the new moves to see what will work best. Some moves work better than others, on certain attacks. It all depends what type of counterattack you wish to execute, and where you would like your opponent to end up.

Summarizing, I would have to say that I appreciate the 5 added katas and I also perform a bunkai for each one, which helps me use the movements on all types of attacks.

TIP: Try performing the Kanshiwa bunkai with front kick attacks instead of punches! The versatility in the Kanshiwa kata can handle the attacks.

[Bill Glasheen]

Ohhh the angst!

I find this whole discussion interesting and funny at the same time. I (and perhaps J.D.) almost wish I could shut up for another day to hear more so as not to affect future responses.

First.... Good question, Jake. Keep them coming.

Let's see, where do I start? If you'll bear with me, I'd like to tend to some housekeeping first. I'll address Jake's questions and all the worthy responses later.

Waltham and Estonian accents (and the like...)

God bless my seniors; where would we all be without them? That having been said, let's once again mind the business of patching up what our uni-lingual ancestors f***ed up way back when. If Gary Khoury were around, I'm sure he'd second this effort.

Please write the following 100 times - properly spelled:

Kanbun Uechi (not Kambun or Kanbum or anybody else's bum).

Ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, shichi, hachi, ku, ju Do your best to listen to a Japanese language instructor. Try not to sound like a gaijin.

Sanchin (San-chin...three conflicts)
Kanshiwa (Kan-shiwa from Kanbun* and shushiwa)
Kanshu (Kan-shu from Kanbun* and shushiwa)
Seichin (Sei-chin...ten conflicts**)
Seisan (Sei-san...ten three or thirteen**)
Seiryu (Sei-ryu...ten six or sixteen**)
Kanchin (Kan-chin...from Kanbun* and the word "conflict")
Sanseiryu (San-sei-ryu...three ten six or thirty-six**)

* The kanji for the syllable "Kan" is in the names Kanbun, Kanei, Kansei, Kanmei, and Kanji: all names in the Uechi family.

** There are often two pronunciations for characters in the Japanese language. The Japanese had a spoken language before a written one. Scholars learned the character set from mainland China, and superimposed it on the spoken Japanese language. Where the original Japanese pronunciation was used, they called it a kun version. Where a bastardized Chinese pronunciation was used, they called it an on version. Thus for the character ten (a cross I believe), the kun pronunciation would be "ju", and the on pronunciation would be "sei". The use of one pronunciation vs. the other is based on context, custom, and origin.

- Bill

[Jake Steinmann]

I'm short on time, so this post must be short as well.

Sean,
My deepest apologies. I fear you may have gotten the wrong message out of me.
Your comments were quite relevant to the discussion. I wasn't trying to denegrate them, or your instructor.
The question about your teachers identity is not brought on by a desire to attack him. I was simply curious...he provided a slightly different take than some teachers I have heard. I was asking about the book because I was interested in looking at it.
If I have given offense, again, my apologies. It was not my intent.

Jake

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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan

[SEAN C]

No offense taken, Jake.

Thanks for clarifying.

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sean

[maurice richard libby]

Len,

The Japanese phoneme rendered in English (phonetically) as "L" is a sound not found in English. To say it correctly, youput your tongue on the roof of your mouth as if you are saying "L" and "D" at the same time. This comes out as a cross betwee "R" and "L". It is almost impossible for native speakers of English to do. Similarly Japanese speakers have a real problem with "R" sounds in English.

It is best to remember that the phonemes (ie basic sounds) of each language are unique to that language. The more distant the languages are from each other the more different the phonemes are. People will hear automatically hear sounds they are familiar with. Thus many english speakers will hear "L" when the Japanese speaker is saying "R" and vice versa. This is why it is so hard to speak a second language without an accent.

Ah, an education in Anthropological Linguistics finally comes in handy .

maurice
p.s. Bill G. didn't even mention the long vowels or the silent vowels .

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large