Kicking and the lower back?

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:59 am

I heard twice this week, that WTF Tae Kwon Do is bad for the lower back because of all the kicking. What do you think? I wouldn't have asked the question if it wasn't for the fact that I heard from two different TKD people that it bothered there lower back...

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:51 pm

I cannot speak directly to WTF Tae quon do. However when I was first teaching martial arts, Jhoon "nobody bothers me" Rhee and his Safe-T-Chop TM warriors were all over the TV (Call USA-1000 today!). As Sun Tsu would preach, 'Know your enemy!' So I learned what they knew that we did not, and choreographed a kicking form that I made my students learn. The form still exists in various pockets around the world. And I got a good deal of experience working with all the basic kicks of martial arts.

And being a minority player, they didn't know our unique approach.

I believe that situation served the Gracies well in the early days of the UFC. These days though everyone who participates in these free-for-alls is a mixed martial artist.

So coming from this perspective...

First things first. As a general rule of thumb, all power starts from the center. You can get all "woo woo" and spout chi if you want. Or you can understand basic human kinesiology. It matters not. All power starts from the center. If you start with that assumption, then whether you are talking about a hand technique or a foot technique, you will understand the important role of the back.

Tae quon do is famous for its high, lateral kicks. It's even more famous for its "lottery" kicks. Those are kicks like the spinning hook technique to the head that for all practical purposes never get in, but when and if it does, BOOM!!! These motions require a rotation of the spine to work. Now if you want to do the motion with little interest in followup with a hand technique, then you can just lean back and assume your foot will hit and the bad guy will drop. But if you consider high kicks to be just one technique in a stream of movements designed to take a stubborn bad guy down, then you're going to want to try to keep the hands and shoulders up. What this means is that you are both bending and twisting your spine at the same time. When you consider the shear forces on the discs from the rotation and the pinching forces on the discs from bending the spine - combined at the same time - you can see where this can give the back a really good workout.

Like in many activities, you can reduce your risk of injury with proper whole body conditioning, good open chain exercises that teach good body mechanics, good stretching work, and proper rest and nutrition. The dedicated athlete with good genes and eternal youth can do just fine. Remove one of those elements, and your risk of injury increases.

- Bill

Sochin · Post by **Sochin** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:02 pm

Swinging the leg from the hip high to the front apparently stretches the sciatic nerve in the butt and it protests with lower back pain.

Perhaps other kicks do something similar.

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:38 pm

Sochin, can you tell me about your avatar?

Mary Chant · Post by **Mary Chant** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:29 pm

I apologize if this question is not appropriate for this thread; please redirect me if that is the case. I have scoliosis. It is relatively mild; I never wore a brace, and it hasn't seemed to impact my life much, with the exception that I spend extra time stretching my lower back muscles, am prone to lower back aches if I don't exercise, and one of my hips will probably "disappear" as I age (in looking at my mother).

What I am wondering is if you think this is somehow affecting my thrusting side kicks. It seems I have difficulty opening up my hips for the thrusting part of it. Side snap, short angle side, front snap, front thrust, ushiro geri, etc., are fine, but I feel stiff for the thrusting side kick, and to a much lesser extent, the mawashi geri.

I know you haven't met me, seen x rays of my back or anything like that, but was just wondering if you thought this might be a factor. I'm not looking for excuses, but maybe pointers on how to correct and or compensate.

Thank you.

Mary Chant

Sochin · Post by **Sochin** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:00 pm

Until his death in Nov. 01, we were part of O'Sensei Richard Kim's Zen Bei Butoku Kai and we used the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai crest.

After his death we separated from those who claimed the right to the name and the crest and formed our own National Martial Arts Institute in his memory.

We decided to keep the outline of the royal chrysanthimum but inside to have the kanji Nin, patience, as it was Sensei's favorite way of signing his autograph.

We use it in the meaning of patience and endurance, not in the way the ninja use it, as secrect, stealth, hidden etc.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:36 pm

Mary

It's great to hear from you. I hope life is treating you well.

Yes, scoliosis (a lateral curvature of the spine) can indeed affect your kicking. In years of checking tens of thousands of sanchin stances, I have sent many individuals - mostly women - to their doctors (osteopathic physicians, chiropractors, etc.) after identifying spinal anomalies. In every case, I have known it to be associated with difficulties (while not really knowing whether causality existed). From a first principles standpoint, it makes sense.

If you can, do your best to find a good osteopathic jock doc. Someone like that can keep you in the gym where you should be. You may be surprised at what can be done, even after the growth years.

Don't resign yourself to your relatives' genetic destinies. Instead, use it as information to avoid or minimize the impact of their fate. At least you know... Not all such things are identified until it's too late.

- Bill

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:03 pm

Hello Bill,

I see you mention that chiropractors are good for treating scoliosis. I've heard there are some who "string you along" and get you into contracts.. basically milk you for all they can. Do you have any advice on spotting a good chiropractor VS. a bad one?

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:51 am

I heard twice this week, that WTF Tae Kwon Do is bad for the lower back because of all the kicking. What do you think? I wouldn't have asked the question if it wasn't for the fact that I heard from two different TKD people that it bothered there lower back...

It is my personal opinion that WTF Tae Kwon Do is NOT bad for the lower back. For that matter, neither is ITF not ATA, not TSD, or any of those kicking arts.

Problems develop because of other reasons, such as not stretching properly, incorrect technique, physical imperfection, overdoing it, etc. This could be the source of complaints that you heard.

you will understand the important role of the back.

Very good Bill. Proper form is the key.

Tae quon do is famous for its high, lateral kicks. It's even more famous for its "lottery" kicks.

Lottery kicks. I like that.

Those are kicks like the spinning hook technique to the head that for all practical purposes never get in, but when and if it does, BOOM!!!

But they do get in more frequently than not by those worthy of higher levels of practice. All it takes is practice, and a lot of it.

These motions require a rotation of the spine to work.

High potent kicks require torque as well, and a lot of it.

Now if you want to do the motion with little interest in followup with a hand technique, then you can just lean back and assume your foot will hit and the bad guy will drop.

But leaning back is bad, akin to performing a Sanchin thrust with open fingers. A savvy "bad guy" can flip the leaner on his head.

But if you consider high kicks to be just one technique in a stream of movements designed to take a stubborn bad guy down, then you're going to want to try to keep the hands and shoulders up.

Shoulders up?

What this means is that you are both bending and twisting your spine at the same time.

Idealy one does NOT want to bend the spine. However, this happens all the time. That’s a fatal mistake credited to those who have not been trained correctly. Same for leaning back. Younger students think they are cool and can kick higher when they lean back. All that shows me is that they have reached a stagnant plateau which they remain at in their learning and abilities.

When you consider the shear forces on the discs from the rotation and the pinching forces on the discs from bending the spine - combined at the same time - you can see where this can give the back a really good workout.

Tremendous forces, but the back does not seem to be the weak link in 360 deg spinning techniques in a majority of Korean-styled kicks. Other parts of the body go first as a rule.

Like in many activities, you can reduce your risk of injury with proper whole body conditioning, good open chain exercises that teach good body mechanics, good stretching work, and proper rest and nutrition.

Absolutely

The dedicated athlete with good genes and eternal youth can do just fine. Remove one of those elements, and your risk of injury increases.

I'm a believer in that one as well. Many, if not most, advanced and very advanced TKD practitioners lower their kicks for the "killing blows" after they have been doing high kicks and spinning kicks for awhile even though they are dedicated athletes with good genes and still holding on to their eternal youth.

Don’t get me wrong, Bill. I’m not evaluating which kicks are better or worse nor advancing or leaning into the TKD kicks. But what I have found throughout my years in TKD camps is that at least 90% or even more do not do it right, resulting in both injury [present and future], and a much lower power delivery. They simply do not have the body mechanics and don’t know it or are stubborn to change because they think they know it all. The 10% of those who know how to kick properly is where the air gets thin and those who do good there either figured out how to do it on their own or just naturally did it correctly. As far as what I’ve seen over the years and what I’ve been told by some high-level Korean Masters as well, and I have paid my dues, is that TKD kicks are NOT taught in virtually any and all TKD/TSD dojang. Period!

lookingglass · Post by **lookingglass** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:10 am

I have a ex teacher in Ji do Kwan tkd. Named Brent Roberts, he had this spin kick that was so nasty I dont think he is what ppl traditionally think of as the normal tkd guy. His power and skill amazed me. He also has a blk belt with issin ryu and another but the third is Ji do kwan. His teachers are maaster hee ill cho and cho yung nay.

Any ways he would spin and kick but no matter how fast he was going he could control the vertical height of the heel; so it homed in on the persons head if they ducked or stood up and tried to slid back.

When it comes to speed and accuracy I dont think the style of block you have it will hurt when you feel the onslought of a goood head kick.

Some in tkd are serious about it...
Ken

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:17 am

maaster hee ill cho and cho yung nay

Then Brent Roberts was taught real good TKD, which means he received loving care on how to kick properlrly as well as all the other TKD goodies.. He Il Cho used to teach only a few miles from where I lived when he first moved to the states and would get together with us Uechi-ryu guys in Southeastern Massachusetts in those days. Then there was a tremendous exchange of fighting techniques and ideas which the future may well never again witness. He is old now, but when he was in his prime he was legendary and well-respected by the powerful fighters of the Uechi-ryu community of that era. Many of the Korean masters who moved to the states shortly after the Korean conflict were stellar as well. In those days all they knew how to do was to fight and fight well. They passed their talent down naturally and with no holds barred to whomever would reach out and pick the berries. That’s long gone and the fruit which remains in on branches that are out of reach for the general practitioners who often don’t either know how to reach for it or don’t even know it’s there.

Any ways he would spin and kick but no matter how fast he was going he could control the vertical height of the heel; so it homed in on the persons head if they ducked or stood up and tried to slid back.

There’s a way to do it and be very accurate with the kick. Putting the heel, instep or toe exactly where you want it is a science and the practice of that science. There is an x, y, and z geometrical coordinate involved with the kick, not just the vertical height. The mind is an amazing analog computer and must be used in certain ways in order to quickly assess, home in, shoot the foot out, and deliver solidly through a target, whether a heavy bag or a head. Brent Roberts doesn’t have to be the exception to the rule; unfortunately he is.

When it comes to speed and accuracy I dont think the style of block you have it will hurt when you feel the onslought of a goood head kick.

I’m not sure what you meant by that sentence. However, Uechi-ryu blocks are the perfect blocks against TKD. Absolutely true, and a good Uechi man, seasoned against a good TKD man can really put the hurt on him with his blocks. In order to block a lightning-fast kick the block has to also be lightning fast with precision timing. The combination of those attributes makes Uechi blocks devastating. TKD has nothing like it and nothing to defend against them. But there are many times to just get the f’ out of the way. Only experience can teach one when to block and when to do something else.

Some in tkd are serious about it.…

Many are serious about TKD, same thing in Uechi. But there are only a handful in each system who do what it takes to excel. Premadonnas included, the rest have goals other than being the best, fastest, and strongest. Many of those goals are just as admirable although those goals do not provide the path of excellence in the art of fighting.

Mary Chant · Post by **Mary Chant** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:46 pm

Bill,

Thank you for your reply. I will talk with my doctor to get a referal to a good jock doc.

Mary

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:08 pm

benzocaine wrote:

I see you mention that chiropractors are good for treating scoliosis.

what Bill actually wrote:

find a good osteopathic jock doc.

Pardon me for jumping in here, but osteopaths and chiropractors are not the same.

A DO (Doctor of Osteopathy or somesuch) is legally equivilent to an MD. A chiroprator is not.

I'm certain that Bill can clarify further.

lookingglass · Post by **lookingglass** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:49 am

I was so happy to see your post!
I tell many about my teacher and friend Brent and they see TKD as being a sport related art.
Many in the TKD feel that sport TKD is giving the art a bad name.
I met Hee ill cho at his school in Albuquerque, Nm.
He may have moved back to Cali. I am not sure.
My teacher used to tour with him and do demos, I hear they were good friends.
I understand what you are saying about Uechi Ryu. I like the concept also. It and the kicking of TKD I believe are and can be very effective.
The blocking is great.
Please understand this is coming from a student and not a master of either art.
Ken

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:37 am

Ted got it right. I prefer DOs to DCs because their training is more extensive, and they are capable of practicing the full compliment of allopathic (traditional physician) and osteopathic (holistic, manipulation) medicine.

A good DC though is someone to be coveted. Knowing who is good and who isn't is a risky, trial-and-error proposition. Many (not all) DCs generate work by unnecessary manipulations. The few that are good though can help you keep your spine healthy and supple for a lifetime.

The nice thing about a DO is that (s)he can do anything a DC can do, and yet doesn't need to RELY on manipulation to exact treatment. If drug or other therapy is warranted, they can go there too.

Good physical therapy (such as electrical stimulation treatments for the "weak" side) is also useful for scoliosis.

- Bill

Kicking and the lower back?

Kicking and the lower back?

head kicks.

He Il Cho

Thank you deep sea