What are advanced techniques in your art of choice?

[Laird2]

There is obviously some idea of "advanced techniques" in most styles, but the definition is mostly vague and rarely is the idea ever really explored. I'd like to hear what other people think about the subject; why do we hide, postpone or remove certain techniques and concepts from our arts?

I'm not sure if I believe there is advanced techniques. Think there are just some folks that have been training longer.

Why do folks hide remove etc. Well I think Van touched on it via Rory's book. It's the desire to keep training safe.

We do lots of spinal manipulation, neck cranks in our ryu. We had an minor accident about two years ago ...cost the guy a weeks work. It was a real light application and the result was he's fine, he's fine, he's injured. No indication of pain or injury until it was too late.

The accident had me considering not teaching this material as the potential for life changing injury is very real.

I did lots of soul searching over this...eventually I decided to continue to teach it.

I decided that I would be as bad as the guy who hid the purpose of the double shokens and taught blocking swords with fat people instead.

I think I have a duty as a teacher to share all of the little I think I know. So all of the spinal stuff stayed in. But it took me months to come to terms with passing it.

[Van Canna]

Something from Rory that make sense

The technique is irrelevant. To quote Jeff “Violence of action trumps technique”

But you still need to develop basic techniques that will work…according to the dynamics of movement and violence in chaos.

I think this is where our challenge is.

[Laird2]

agree Van!

[jorvik]

Quote
"I recently posted a picture of a simple variation of a kote gaeshi that we do at the farm that essentially is meant to stop a trained person from easily countering that move. It's incredibly simple but I don't think I've seen it used before, though I know it's known by others out there somewhere. So one meaning (I think we'll find several more) of advanced technique could be one that we use against advanced adversaries. "


You can also do Nikkyo with a footsweep, generally the older styles of Aiki/Jiu jitsu will not rely on one move to get a person down. I did kazai arashi aiki no jutsu for a while, and although they used weapons strikes and locks they never used them in the way we have become aquainted, everything came out at once.so generally you would strike/lock/throw all at the same time......another thing to consider when you talk of advanced techniques is that it doesn't always refer to a strike or throw.it can mean a movement or a way of moving. There are old saying in Aikido which are there to give guidance on this " the head moves the body" etc.....if you know to what it refers it is not really a secret at all, if you don't then it gets pretty hard to understand

[maxwell ainley]

Stick to the basics ,keep it simple ,develop a mindset that accompanies etc,etc, how many times as this been said ? yet advanced techniques tend to cancel this out in 90% of cases ,by wanting too much ,that gets in the way of good old basic technque ,obviously with a mindset that 's aqainted with some measure of violence ,we can read about death in books ,but you need to have seen it first hand ,and lesser graduations that creep towards death .

We have just Sanchin and thats it ,now to pull seisan out of that is advanced ,now pull sanseirui out of seisan ,thats advanced .

But we can take this concept for granted .

[MikeK]

You can also do Nikkyo with a footsweep, generally the older styles of Aiki/Jiu jitsu will not rely on one move to get a person down. I did kazai arashi aiki no jutsu for a while, and although they used weapons strikes and locks they never used them in the way we have become aquainted, everything came out at once.so generally you would strike/lock/throw all at the same time......:

Ray,
The stacking of several basic techniques to me is another definition of advanced technique. When I started it was do one technique, then it was do two, three or four basic techniques sequentially. These days it's now stacking two or more basic techniques so they are executed at the same time. It gets even better when you are attacking their base and upper body at the same time.

Max, advanced techniques don't have to be complex but can be just several basics executed together or even just better tools and targets.

The technique is irrelevant. To quote Jeff “Violence of action trumps technique”

Many times it probably does but not always as VoA and good technique are not mutually exclusive. If you are using VoA and the other guy is also using VoA then technique is one of the tie breakers. As long as using good technique isn't the main goal and taking out the other guy is you should be good to go.

[hoshin]

as for myself i do sometimes hold back material and explanations. not for any other reason then the person just is not ready to understand it. as someone else said earlier it can become a waste of time. for them and me. it distracts them from what is important at the stage they are at, and i could explain the same idea and concepts 100 times and it can still be like talking to a wall and would be misinterpreted.
so while at first i thought no i dont hold back stuff but after some thought,,,,yeah i have, i think we all have.

steve

[hoshin]

i belive more in advanced concepts then advanced technique. i made a comment on an earlier post about the konshiwa kata ending combination , my point was the advanced timing. even within black belt rank i rarely see advanced timing adaptions. i am not sure of the source ( could have been Rory) but i remember the comment about "minimal actions for the widest amount of application" timing is a way to change the application.
i also read at some point about a japanese koryu that the most advanced techniques shown by the soke looked like nothing more then moving and dodging thru impecible timing. reminded me of aiki.

[JimHawkins]

In my book 'advanced' is just a way to say skill, otherwise it's just another move, another thing we add, more is not always better, often it is just more..

To me the same concepts exist at a beginner level and advanced level.. What makes one more "advanced" is the expression of the very same concepts and often the very same tools and techniques, it's just a more efficient, skilled way of putting things together--depth ..

[MikeK]

Jim,
Can you flesh out what you mean by, "it's just a more efficient" with some examples?

[JimHawkins]

Jim,
Can you flesh out what you mean by, "it's just a more efficient" with some examples?

Good example could be a response to a wrist or arm grab..

Some of the concepts in play are centerline control, immovable elbow, forward energy, hand unity, hand replacement, body alignment, etc.. The same ones always in play btw.

At an early level you will see folks executing all different kinds of responses, with various timing, none wrong per se but it's not the whole package and none an instant blending of these concepts. One person might simply strike and step in, another might drop the elbow pull it away and then attack and step in; another might clear the space, then strike, etc.. Lots of options..

Later on though you'll see after conditioning to stimuli a singular response.. One that does not seek to address the problem but one that seeks to move past the problem and on to the final solution--control via attack.. One of the basics of CMA that Bruce often talked about is an instant response, by instant we mean sudden, explosive and very brief in time--like the time it takes to blink..

An example would be an instant blending of all the elements.. So you see the advanced expression as a whole very brief explosion of energy and motion.. (1) The body aligns as; (2) the lead foot steps, (3) as the grabbed arm elbow drops; (4) as forward pressure is applied from the body via the arms and contact; (5) as the clearing hand replaces; (6) as the strike is fired.. BANG one instant, and brief explosion of, as we can see here six different 'things' and several different tools and actions.. They all start together and 'end' with the counter attack, bang!

Of course this would be just the beginning of YOUR attack, so you move on and stay attacking beyond this sudden reversal..

But that is a good example of how the concepts and tools are all expressed in an advanced and efficient manner--as a single 'thing'..

[jorvik]

I think that there is a point to be made, and that is that in some styles you can see a development of skill so that you do actually advance and because of that there are advanced techniques.........while in others you don't see that, so you never really know if there is skill there or not.
An example of the former would be Judo................the best ( to watch) Judo tournements are between a beginner and an advanced grade, because the advanced grade can throw the beginner around. However with systems that don't have tests and just rely on kata or other methods of assesment then there is always the question if the practitioner is really that good, if they can really walk their talk.................so I guess that is another thing to look for when talking about advanced techniques...........the technique is not advanced if you just know it...you must be able to apply it

[Bill Glasheen]

The stacking of several basic techniques to me is another definition of advanced technique.

Van likes to quote Rory's book. In a class I took at camp from Rory, he taught 10 principles of grappling. One of them was the concept of stacking. When you see a few examples of it, you totally get it.

A great example is Kote gaeshi. You can choose just to super-supinate the forearm. Or you can choose to super-flex the wrist. Or you can do both at the same time, and double their pleasure.

Apply the concept to other joints, and life gets interesting.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Jim, Thanks for going into more detail. A very old pet peeve of mine comes from when I was training karate at one school where they would say advanced technique were just basics done better. I asked what that meant and the sensei just did a regular old lunge punch and gave me the "look" and did it two more times. I realized at that point he didn't have anything else but basics that were still very basic and it was time to move on.

.the technique is not advanced if you just know it...you must be able to apply it

Thanks Ray for ruining my day.

The stacking of several basic techniques to me is another definition of advanced technique.

Van likes to quote Rory's book. In a class I took at camp from Rory, he taught 10 principles of grappling. One of them was the concept of stacking. When you see a few examples of it, you totally get it.

A great example is Kote gaeshi. You can choose just to super-supinate the forearm. Or you can choose to super-flex the wrist. Or you can do both at the same time, and double their pleasure.

Apply the concept to other joints, and life gets interesting.

- Bill

Bill, I think you solved the mystery of where I first heard the term "stacking" used, it was in your class and that was the example you used. I started using the word to describe using multiple techniques applied very, very close together. A very simple example of a short stack would be driving your knee into the other guy's thigh while smashing him in along the jaw line with your elbow. One lights up his world and the other breaks his base.

Another stack would be applying a kote gaeshi while applying another technique to keep the guy from going with the flow of the main technique. Done gently it's fun to watch the guy's body try to do two things at once and fail at both of them. I posted a picture of a non-gentle version of this a while back but pulled it as I haven't asked the guys in the picture if I could post it on the net.

[maxwell ainley]

You can also do Nikkyo with a footsweep, generally the older styles of Aiki/Jiu jitsu will not rely on one move to get a person down. I did kazai arashi aiki no jutsu for a while, and although they used weapons strikes and locks they never used them in the way we have become aquainted, everything came out at once.so generally you would strike/lock/throw all at the same time......:

Ray,
The stacking of several basic techniques to me is another definition of advanced technique. When I started it was do one technique, then it was do two, three or four basic techniques sequentially. These days it's now stacking two or more basic techniques so they are executed at the same
time. It gets even better when you are attacking their base and upper body at the same time.

Max, advanced techniques don't have to be complex but can be just several basics executed together or even just better tools and targets.

The technique is irrelevant. To quote Jeff “Violence of action trumps technique”

Many times it probably does but not always as VoA and good technique are not mutually exclusive. If you are using VoA and the other guy is also using VoA then technique is one of the tie breakers. As long as using good technique isn't the main goal and taking out the other guy is you should be good to go.

Mike I deliberately went a bit complex and basic too ,every one as there view on subject, I spend up too 4 hrs per day on sanchin which is actually the most advanced kata in uechi ,but here again it depends upon were one is on the evolving spiral of growth ,if you rush past sanchin too quickly KANISHWA would be advanced in ones body and mind ,so on as we go along ,but maybe some wise sensei will gradually bring one back to sanchin ,again and again ,and just maybe it will be seen with new eyes .

if Sanchin lags behind sanseirui it will remain a basic ,if it gets in front it will be advanced ,the choice is yours .