Would you train with........

[Le Haggard]

Hello All Again!

BILL:
I didn't intend to imply that I believed we can understand the other gender's experience. And I'm right there with ya on the knowing I don't know part.

I suppose what I was responding to is what I thought you were saying about:

1) cultural taboos against homosexuality adding "an additional (or perhaps unique) element of repugnance for the male" making male/male interactions somehow more repugnant than male/female ones

and that

2) male/male situations could be related to "pecking order" and gender/social roles, but male/female ones could/are not due to some gender specific set of social interactions.

It looks like my understanding was mistaken though, I'm glad to say. Having a different perspective and opinion doesn't bother me in the least either.

As Rich mentioned about the female marines, the Alpha-Alpha thing seems to come up regardless of gender.

What you mentioned with psych warfare was what I meant by my previous mentions of the "mindgame" too. I think that is very legit. Would the response be the same if a woman grabbed you? Would your attention be distracted if, for example, her top slipped and bared a breast? Makes me wonder what resources a woman can use in a real fight because of her gender!

RICH:
You also brought up something else I would like to ask you guys about.

The original question related to not only gay men but grappling with women as well. You mentioned the hesitancy of going "no holds barred" against women in grappling training and that the pause could give them a momentary advantage perhaps.

I was wondering if there were any issues you guys may have about the potential of losing in practice/competition to a woman or openly gay man? Is there some sort of stigma or damage to your sense of masculinity in losing to them, either from your own thoughts or comments from other guys if you were to lose? I.E.: You got beat by a GIRL! You got beat by a (Insert derogatory term)!

I wonder if that adds some issues to grappling as well. I think that could be part of the original issue raised rather than just the sexuality aspect. What do you think?

Comments Anyone?

Le'

[KerryM]

Personally I would think that not an issue. Only because once you've gotten into MA it becomes a matter of skill. An honorable, respectful "person" dis-regarding sex, would recognise the "winner's" skill. If that were not the case? I personally think they'd have some "other issues" to work on internaly, as in the mind or spiritual aspect.

Maybe another question to raise would be, would a woman- expect to be beaten by a man? If you were in a tournement would a woman sit back begining a match against a man and think- I'm never gonna beat this guyy- he's huge? This is along the same lines- I think the answer would be a matter of skill also- as well as confidense. "Using" your style would become most important.

I personally believe that MA's are as much internal if not more so, than actual physical- in nature. Uechi- as I've mentioned before is 66 n 3rd part internal- things you can't see.... (i.e. mind and spirit) These thing come into play when dealing with these questions. If your "mind's" training, or your "spirit's" training, is un-balanced, or lacking- or weakened- then these questions would be issue. In my opinion. - Sitting here typing this. LOL- Personally I wouldn't have any problem with "grappling" (though I have no training in this so I'm speaking out of turn here- but the concept- or else by applying it to parts of Uechi which might be effecting- i.e. the take down in Don Kumite *foot strike to groin area*) a person either hetro or gay- the bigger issue for me would be how many more years of training they had, than I. This would become an internal battle to at least put up my best fight- not whether they touched me in a manner that was condusive to the drill. Meaning- say I'm doing Don Kumitae with someone whose been in Uechi for years longer than I have, and it's my turn to do the foot strike- that's where I'd be feeling "humbled" so to speak.... Even though it's part of the drill- my respect for their years would "get" me.....

Just my thoughts- I really can't say much about the grappling part since I don't have any idea what it entails

Thanks for letting me contribute though.

K-

[RACastanet]

Hello Le. Regarding any loss of dignity or whatever by losing to a female or gay male I do not have any issue with that at all. May the better person win.

In grappling situation the more skilled person will likely win unless there is a huge size and strength difference. In stand up you can out slug or take more punsihment than a smaller more skilled opponent. On the ground skill really takes over. In the grappling trainng sessions a tap out is wise as there is very little time before a headlock or armlock incapacitates or injures you.

The Marines will apply muscular or soft tissue gouges as a distracting move, and it works. I myself would not do that to a female to regain advantage in what is just 'friendly' grappling. Again, that is just a personal thing with me. In a life or death struggle however...

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

LeAnn

I like the way you think. I come from a family with 6 highly educated and athletic sisters. Three happen to be unusually beautiful (long red or blonde hair, great facial features). For years several of them have learned to play gender roles to achieve an end. I could tell you story after story...particularly with my older sister who was partner (lawyer) to her husband as CEO of a Japanese subsidiary. Good little beautiful wife, and dumb like a fox. It's great being underestimated; chauvanism has its advantages.

I was wondering if there were any issues you guys may have about the potential of losing in practice/competition to a woman or openly gay man?

Le, I think you'll find that the "converted" (the ones chatting on this thread) aren't going to have an issue here. But a fair number of men REALLY have a problem with this. If you don't believe me, listen from the perspective of women (on the women's forum).

I've even heard people say things like "I don't want to marry a woman who can kick my ass," or "I don't want to have sex with a woman that looks like Arnold." Sigh... Their loss!

As for losing to an openly gay male, well... I don't know how most feel. I don't think this is usually a problem per se.

It would be so though in the "prison environment." And frankly if it were me, I'd rather die fighting than get raped. But that's a personal choice.

- Bill

[Guest]

And frankly if it were me, I'd rather die fighting than get raped.

- Bill

And the animals in prison would just rape your Dead A$$. Dead and raped with no payback .

I'd rather live so I could kill them.
But thats just me.

Laird

[2Green]

Based on my experience, few men believe a women can beat them in combat, whether it's drills, kumite, sparring or whatever, AND: I believe most men would feel "shamed" if it happened. Especially in front of their classmates.
I think most men "only drive fast enough to win the race" when paired off against a women.
I think our cultural taboos prevent us from enthusiastically injuring women-partners in training.
I personally know a gay male or two (I'm not gay) who is superbly conditioned and well able to defend himself against at least two normally-prepared street punks (aggressive change-beggars who don't take "no" for an answer and may have a blade) with room to spare.

There are definitely women who can kick our ass, but we tend to think "this one" isn't the one.
This is reinforced when a green belt throws a 3-Dan Sensei on her ass only doing as instructed. Caveat Emptor.

I know of a local BJJ lady instructor, 5'2" who can take any MA to the floor and tie him/her in a painful knot quicker than he/she can say "Aaiiee...!!!"

NM

[Le Haggard]

Hey All!

KERRY: Thanks! Good thoughts there. I think everyone has "issues" though of one kind or another. I'm not saying people would *act* on those issues..Just that they have em of one kind or another. If they don't think they have *any* issues..I would say they are in denial. Society produces screwed up people. It's just a matter of how bad....just my opinion.

Now..Stupid Le' question #3412: I don't know what Uechi etc. are conceptually. SO...what is it and what is the premise of it that y'all keep talking about? I don't know any terms or NUTHIN bout that.

Basically, the stuff that I'm interested in and trying to learn may be rooted in traditional systems, but I'm learning it for what I would call "Flat-out-whatever-works-to-keep-me-safe-and-get-out-alive." Dirty street, back room, what a woman needs to survive the brutal world kind of stuff. All the rest is bonus and a side-effect of that. I don't think of whether or not someone will beat me in the training etc that I've done. I think more in terms of "What would I have to do to get out of this and survive?" whether or not it was real. I guess a different reason for studying MAs may give different answers to these questions. So far for me, being able to name what those skills are hasn't been a priority.

HEY RICH! Good Tips from the Marines there! Just for my own info from a self-defense point of view, do they teach the women to use their gender at all in some different ways? Do you think the things I've mentioned before would be a bit of a distraction in a 'real' situation to perhaps give a woman that brief moment of advantage? From you speaking as a guy working with these "alpha" women of course.

Bill: Yeahhhh I can be evil Heehee. I don't get the reactions your sisters do it sounds like, but I'm big on knowing what weapons are in my arsenal that I can potentially use. I hate the gender game, but if it's forced on me by some guy, I'm dang well going to use his own stupidity against him. I actually get the negative male responses for being a strong woman too, just strong in different areas than MAs.

LAIRD: I have to agree with you there. People would be surprised at what you can survive. I figure its better survive and get revenge, even if that just means living a good life when the person didn't want you to. My personal motto that has served me well..excuse the language..but "Never let the bastards win." If you die, they win...I'm too stuborn to give them that satisfaction.

NM: That's kinda what I was thinking...even if they didn't say anything or do anything about it. Sounds like what you say supports the "mind game" idea too. Cockiness can work for you OR against you.

Thanks Y'all! Good Stuff for this beginner!

Le'

[RACastanet]

Hello Le. The Marines are gender neutral. A Marine is a Marine is a Marine. Everyone is a rifleman first, regardless of the assigned duty.

There are some occupations that women are excluded from, such as scout sniper or attack helo pilot, but in training they get no relief from the high standards and I have observed no special instruction given to them.

There are a few who have expressed disapointment at being excluded from front line combat but they all knew the rules going in.

There is a femanine side displayed of course. They smell better for one thing, and I did see a young officer wearing 'bunny slippers' early one morning. Cute.

Rich

[KerryM]

Hi ya Le'

Coarse I'm biased- but- this is a pretty good system for the basics of what you need to get-out-of-it-alive. Just in Uechi itself. There are many people who will jump in and say Uechi lacks this drill or skill or what-not, but in my experience- not as a law enforcement person, or military person, just a regular ole' mom, n business person- this is the style.

Couple basic "thoughts" or rather concepts in Uechi- the age old adage=- "karate for defense only"- you can get a couple of topics going on that because that's a barrel of worms LOL- (when does smart defense become offesive etc.etc.)

also- Uechi started as- or from- Piang-gy-noon (I can't spell) which means=half hard half soft= (another barrel LOL) karate itself means "empty hands" so basically you have a system of empty-handed moves learned to defend yourself- by being skilled in the art of doing so- half hard ly and half soft-ly.... (This was my big chance to give YOU a headacke LOL did it work? LOL)

That's the basics as I would put them. Please no one take offense by my "barrel" comments... just poking fun at all the "arguements" posed here on these threads

I think what makes me love Uechi-ryu personally so much is that there are "blocks" which you learn- as deflecting moves away from you- yet at the same time- they are strikes as well. Learn a good strong balanced circle block, and not only will you not get hit but you'll knock someone over just by performing your "block" with skill. I love that.


K-

[Le Haggard]

Hey Kerry!

Heehee! I'll take your "sales pitch" for what it's worth! I know there are tons of debate about which method does what for whom.. Gawds I love diversity!

(This was my big chance to give YOU a headacke LOL did it work? LOL)

Sorry! 2 1/2 years Chinese Philosophy, 2 quarters Mandarine, and 10 Days in Beijing, China this Spring stumbling through the language. You made sense. I'll have to look up the translations in my dictionary though...heehe...I just wish I knew which characters the words are.

Good info! What can you tell me that distinguishes Uechi from any number of other "traditional" systems? So far, those skills are all part of the martial arts I've learned in different systems.

Le'

[Stryke]

heh doesnt karate mean chinese hands ....

another barrel of worms Kerry

good thread everyone not much to add just great posts

[KerryM]

wow I am so huge-ly jelouse! LOL Good for you!

humn- I'll ask my hub this question- I'm just going for my black- he's been one in Uechi close to 30 yrs but my first thoughts?- We have an incredibly strong front kick- the way we condition our legs- and train for balance- gives us more than I'd say T kwon do- (please nobody hurt me- just opinions LOL) etc. Our "sense of" balance is developed in different manners than other systems- so in my huhmble opinion- it is developed to a "finer tune" BUT - that's not to say other systems don't have awesome balance (please seriouisly young opinion here- and just that)

We also have the one knuckle punch- If I remember correctly this is a trrade mark of Uechi. Can't remember the name of it- sheesh I'll make an awesome black huh LOL- in class I can but sitting here- too many kids running around distracting me lol...

Those two are my first "reactional" answers- I'll ask my hub too though n get back with ya-


K-

NOTE AGAIN- my opinions here- and my knowledge isn't as great as others here- so- shrugging sholders- just my personal take

[KerryM]

LOL

not according to Sensei Mattson's book- have it right in front of me-

*trying to sound like Mr. Miagi from Karate Kid movie*

"
karrraaate' mean ...... empty hands."

but a couple pages over it has (in the beginning looking at Kanji) it shows "glare in your eyes with fast hands" but no mention of meaning "karate"



K

(sheesh if I have the book right here I should look up what ya call the one knuckle punch- but the day time emmy's are on so...... LOL- I'll take it with me n look in commercials

[Le Haggard]

well...karate may or may not mean anything about hands. I don't know which translitteration it is using and I don't know the original characters or "tones" of the components..They make a huge difference like with "ma"..which in just 5 instances means either that you are asking a question, talking about your mother, talking about a horse, refering to someone with the last name Ma, or cussing someone out!

BUT...If I'm guessing right.. the "te" component of it could means a reference to "power." That would make sense.

Sorry I'm going all into my head again!

Look forward to finding out more about Uechi from y'all too! Congrats on the impending Black Belt Kerry!

Le'

[KerryM]

oh for craps sake I said it all wrong LOL

what's makes us unique-

there are three actual traditional styles of karate- just "karate" the rest aren't karate- we are one of the three- (along with I think shohinryuy and goju ryuu)

we have an up-right stance- (which is what I was talking about with balancing)

and we use "body-conditioning" which is what I was referring to with the different techniques.... so I was close

But to someone who doesn't study Uechi- this is the answer you'd get this is what we are known for-

K