McCain chooses Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska

[IJ]

Bill: agreed that Kerry lost the race more than Bush won it. Dems have that doofus thing going on, and there was also a bit of the mid-war don't change the course thing as well. I'm glad things are significantly better overseas.

Jason: I don't see a conflict between anticipating intra islam friction and trying to stem an AIDS crisis in Africa, personally... I would anticipate difficulty changing ANY culture, actually, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile or cost effective. If it IS a waste of taxpayer dollars to hand out condoms, it is demonstrably more of a waste to tell them not to have sex at all, which was the strategery of our unshakably confidant President. What I sense from you is more a disgust with foreign aid, which is another matter. That's a complex debate to say the least, but I would start by saying while countries have problems, poor individuals can't/don't respond productively to being told to buy their own condoms.

I've got problems with abortion being "in" the Constitution, yeah. But that's been decided case law in our courts for decades and justices are supposed to stick to their principle of stare decesis. Meanwhile whether people believe that abortion is Constitutionally protected are still going to protect their Roe v Wade. Pro life people would do the same if the tables were turned. Suffice to say its an issue that impacts people's votes, including with regard to current candidates, which is why I brought it up. As for Lincoln, we are to believe that while GWB appointed loyal mirrors so he could pursue his own ideas without distraction, Lincoln appointed a cabinet with the intention it would fight with itself and leave him even more alone to pursue his ideas? Not the impression I got in an interview with an author of a Lincoln biographer.

Mhosea: "I think this is a valid criticism and much more to the point of what's been disconcerting about his presidency than his evangelical faith." --you know, I agree, it's hard to know whether people who have fundamentalist religions end up with fundamentalist / rigid styles of government, or whether people of that mindset are presdisposed to choosing a similar style of religion, but while the style of leadership is the real problem, I do suspect they're linked, and either one is a red flag for me.

[Jason Rees]

Jason: I don't see a conflict between anticipating intra islam friction and trying to stem an AIDS crisis in Africa, personally... I would anticipate difficulty changing ANY culture, actually, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile or cost effective. If it IS a waste of taxpayer dollars to hand out condoms, it is demonstrably more of a waste to tell them not to have sex at all, which was the strategery of our unshakably confidant President. What I sense from you is more a disgust with foreign aid, which is another matter. That's a complex debate to say the least, but I would start by saying while countries have problems, poor individuals can't/don't respond productively to being told to buy their own condoms.

I find the whole thing disturbing, Ian. We hand out billions upon billions of money to countries all over the world, and rarely see a penny back. In the case of Africa, I would rather see the money go towards vaccinations and healthcare. Leave reproductive and STD transmission to their governments, and seriously pressure them to do something about it.

I've got problems with abortion being "in" the Constitution, yeah. But that's been decided case law in our courts for decades and justices are supposed to stick to their principle of stare decesis...

There's nothing wrong with revisiting the poorly constucted foundation, and revising it. Regardless of the Supreme Court makeup, I highly doubt abortion will ever be completely outlawed in this country. We have however seen the courts go too far in the other direction.

As for Lincoln, we are to believe that while GWB appointed loyal mirrors so he could pursue his own ideas without distraction, Lincoln appointed a cabinet with the intention it would fight with itself and leave him even more alone to pursue his ideas? Not the impression I got in an interview with an author of a Lincoln biographer.

I'm not saying they were loyal mirrors at all. Most of them would likely have stabbed him in the back if they had the chance. What I meant was, that he arranged them to be more concerned with other members of the cabinet than him, allowing him to focus on his executive duties with their advisement, minus their interference.

[AAAhmed46]

Palin is problematic. She's been wheeled on as a sort of embodiment of Big Wimmin to attract the female vote. The thing is, though, she's a representative of only one kind of woman.

Now, there's plenty of stay-at-homes and full-time mothers out there, many (but not all) of whom are on the right of the spectrum: guns 'n apple pie, no bonking before marriage, We Support The Troops etc.

But few of them embody all of the cliches like Palin does. Humans are a dynamic bunch and there's no doubt big differences in opinion even between the most fervent Republican voting women over issues like abortion, issues between Church And State, the environment and so on. It stands to reason.

Yet none of them scream RED STATE!!!!!!! like Palin does. She isn't just of the right - she's a veritable tickbox form of Republican womanhood. It's not normal to be that archetypical though. Humans differ, or at least are supposed to.

The irony is that she may become VP via a strange sort of sisterly support from women who are not entirely au fait with everything she represents. They see her as a symbol, but seem unwilling to bear in mind the total package.

Imagine a mad granola-and-patchouli pinko who bans her kids from competitive sports, scolds her boys for playing with guns and not dolls, forces her Sports Studies lecturer husband to buy a Prius and puts her daughters on the pill at 12 and you'll get the Democrat equivalent of Palin - which is to say, an absurd living caricature.

[mhosea]

Palin is problematic.

You're right. She's a huge, friggin' problem for anybody who wants Obama and Biden to win, and you'd better believe they know it by now. But that means the liberal women are very much against her. They're not going to vote for her just because she's a woman. Get real. They might vote for her as part of diabolical plan to get Hillary back in 2012.

[AAAhmed46]

Palin is problematic.

You're right. She's a huge, friggin' problem for anybody who wants Obama and Biden to win, and you'd better believe they know it by now. But that means the liberal women are very much against her. They're not going to vote for her just because she's a woman. Get real. They might vote for her as part of diabolical plan to get Hillary back in 2012.

Pretty much, yeah.

[TSDguy]

The fact that they've told the press the will NEVER allow Palin to do an interview is a brilliant strategy. Anything who isn't retarded already has a pretty good idea what she is. The retards like AAAhmed described can go on believing whatever they want her to be. If the repubs win this, it will be the most saavy and scripted election of all time... and probably the worst thing you can hope for for the country.

[Glenn]

Can anyone name the last 3rd-party candidate to actually win the presidential election?

Abraham Lincoln. The Republicans at the time WERE the third (fourth or fifth, actually) party.

Correct. The two dominant parties leading up to the 1860 election had been the Democrats and the Whigs. Lincoln was initially a Whig, and belonged to that party when he was an Illinois congressman in the 1840s. However the issue of slavery divided the Whig party and many of its anti-slavery members went to the new Republican party after it formed in 1854 on an anti-Kansas-Nebraska Act (and anti-slavery in general) platform. In 1856 the Republicans fielded their first presidential candidate, Fremont who had some support in the north but not enough to win the election, and in 1860 they fielded Lincoln who won. The Whig Party was already declining by 1856, and Lincoln's election as a Republican in 1860 effectively ended the Whig party, resulting in the Republican party joining the Democratic party as the two dominant parties.

No 3rd party candidate has really even come close to doing what Lincoln and the Republicans did in 1860. The success of those 3rd party Republicans was in their stance on the dominant polarizing issue of the time, slavery. The only issue that has come close to having the same effect would probably be Vietnam, but no 3rd party was able to translate that into a presidential victory or even any long-term success at lower offices. There really are no similar issues currently for a 3rd party to stand behind that enough Amercians feel strongly enough about to give them a victory at the national level.

[Bill Glasheen]

The fact that they've told the press the will NEVER allow Palin to do an interview is a brilliant strategy.

Not quite.

ABC News' Gibson lands first Sarah Palin interview

- Bill

[TSDguy]

I think they were better off the first way. The less she says anything unscripted, the better for them. We'll see if it pays off.

[Bill Glasheen]

I think they were better off the first way. The less she says anything unscripted, the better for them. We'll see if it pays off.

You're assuming Palin is like some political leaders who don't do well off the telepromter. One of the people running for office has been characterized in this fashion. McCain and company however seem to think this is Palin's forte.

We shall see...

One thing is for sure. From what I have read, Palin does her homework. She's a non-nonsense workaholic. * Additionally, she majored in journalism in college. She may be "branded" for her beliefs, but she won't be caught flat footed.

- Bill

* Source: ABC Sunday morning roundtable

[Glenn]

But that means the liberal women are very much against her. They're not going to vote for her just because she's a woman. Get real.

I know a couple more-to-the-left republican women who have already stated they will not vote for the republican ticket because of Palin, her views are too far to the right for them.

In general, candidates whose views are at the extreme left or the extreme right don't do well in elections, particularly at higher offices like the presidency. More moderate candidates that are closer to the center will generally do well, they naturally have a broader appeal. The interesting aspect here is that McCain is more moderate than Palin, so you have a presidential candidate with reasonably broad appeal combined with a polarizing vice-presidential candidate. The question will be whether the votes of the far-right that she will help gain for McCain will offset the votes of the left that she will help lose for McCain.

[TSDguy]

I think she'll be fine off the telepromter in some ways Bill, but Glenn further illustrated what I was thinking. The less people know about someone like Palin, the better (for her to get elected.)

To be honest, that applies to the other 3 guys as well, but Obama and Biden are both top-notch political speakers and McCain hardly ever makes any sense so there is nothing to critique.

[Bill Glasheen]

The interesting aspect here is that McCain is more moderate than Palin, so you have a presidential candidate with reasonably broad appeal combined with a polarizing vice-presidential candidate. The question will be whether the votes of the far-right that she will help gain for McCain will offset the votes of the left that she will help lose for McCain.

It's more than that, Glenn.

Palin is part yin (woman) and part yang (social conservative). The power play here is to attract both the party base as well as a fraction of the Hillary supporters who are angry that she was snubbed by the Democratic ticket.

She doesn't just have a vagina. She's a beauty pageant runner up. Note how women want pictures of beautiful women on their magazines. It's their own sense of empathy and identity coming into play. Then she's a working mom happily raising her less-than-perfect beautiful family - something a LOT of women can identify with.

The more she can come across as "one of us", the more likely the gamble will pay off. Palin is very good at doing that without ever having to pull the feminine victim card.

- Bill

[Glenn]

I wish I was back in the South for this election. From what I've experienced of the white male redneck faction, including some of my kinfolk, this election will likely be stressful given there is an African-American on one ticket and a woman on the other ticket. And not voting is not an option for them. Their internal debate with their biases holds the potential for some entertainment value.

In all seriousness though, what's significant is that the portion of people, redneck or otherwise, experiencing such stress is certainly lower than it would have been 20 or so years ago. Many people whom I knew back then who openly held such biases surprise me with how open they are now to either possibility.

[Jason Rees]

I'm still puzzling over how Palin is supposed to be 'extreme.' Her position on abortion, for example, is no more extreme than Obama's, it's just on the other end of the spectrum. Alaska's schools don't teach Creationism. They don't have state-mandated prayer... all this fear-mongering by Democrats borders on psychotic.