End results of war?!?

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:27 pm

I concur that Market Watch is pretty neutral, but stand by my opinion of NPR as a whole.

Rich

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:27 pm

Tom and Ray Magliozzi (of Car Talk) take great pride in being part of the armpit of radio journalism.

A standard of excellence? We think not. But memorable? You bet.

- Bill

KarateKid · Post by **KarateKid** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:19 pm

How do the Iraqi's feel about Saddam Hussein?

Are there any reports on this?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:22 pm

Well in Saddam's recent "election", he received 100% of the popular vote. What a guy!

We'll never know the truth.

- Bill

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:09 pm

Bill-otomodachi,

OK... I'll give a little on MarketWatch. But just a little.

Years ago, I worked in a place that had NPR on constantly. The women that ran the place were tricked into believing that much of the political commentary they were listening to was from the "Democratics". Since it was the "party line" and they were both die-hard Democrats, they kept moving further and further to the left and taking on more and more communist and socialist political positions. Then one day I argued with them in the cafeteria and told them what they were believing was unAmerican. They argued that it was from the Democrats so it was not unAmerican. I pointed out that all of those commentaries are from the "Democratic Socialist Party", not the "Democratic Party". They maintained that it was the same thing... I informed that the Democratic Socialist Party IS the Communist Party in the USA! I was proven correct when we all listened to the next commentary together... and when we all sent the Democratic Socialist Party for their literature, history and stances. A little more research and they were agast. Shortly thereafter I moved on...

Any network who's main source of political commentary comes from the Socialists and Communists should NOT get ANY funding from the public coffers... PERIOD.

IMNSHO, we could pack up most of the snooze people (especially at NPR) and drop them in Iraq... from B2 bombers at 50,000 feet without parachutes!

Ahem... when I get permission, I'll let you know how I really feel.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:34 pm

I will give a little myself here. Normally I don't listen to much except for the news on the half hour, a few odd commentaries, Market Watch, and Car Talk.

Today as I was driving to a few locations, I heard interview after interview of folks against the war in Iraq. Now understand that I'm a flaming independent here. Heck, I'll sit and listen to the early morning preachers on Sunday morning TV (that wake me up from my slumber) if they talk a good talk - even though I'm a unitarian at best. But today was a bit much... Interviews about people that disagreed with going to war. An interview of a journalist who talked about American arrogance and American narcissism. Etc., etc. ad nauseum. And so just as I often turn the page after reading the Richmond Times Dispatch editorials (equally silly in the opposite extreme today), I did what anyone should do when confronted with close-mindedness. I changed the station.

These are trying and emotional times. Lives are at stake. Both countries will be at peril for a bit. The future is uncertain. Opinions about what should be done vary widely. Heck, a good number of people are just plain confused here. But propaganda is propaganda. Sometimes it's just refreshing to get the facts - as many facts as possible - and make up your own mind. I believe Albert Einstein once said that Time magazine was for people who couldn't think, and Life for people who couldn't read. Amen...

I respect all those who have opinions on this subject when they form those opinions on the facts. I greatly appreciate the passion of feelings in these troubled times. I am thankful I live where folks can express ALL those opinions. I am also thankful for all those who fight so that the many can live in freedom.

When the debate on an issue is moot, it's time to say "What next?" It's clear here that the US and Britain are going to war. It's clear that we are about to enter a new era. Let's bring it on, and support each other. Decisions have been made. It's time to watch the fight and live the aftermath.

And if that's too much to bear now, there's always March Madness.

- Bill

flavor flav · Post by **flavor flav** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:52 pm

Unless I am mistaken, the socialist ideas that NPR sometimes backs or encourages are not un American. I think many things have been manipulated by spinmasters to bring up automatic negative responses in people when certain words or phrases are mentioned.

I always thought NPR did a very good job of representing democratic viewpoints, and while some of the shows (Travis Smileys, for instance), have a definite leftist bias, I dont think that is any worse than the sometimes ultra conservative (sometimes even fascist) selection of news that wall street journal represents. Im not saying wall street journal is unintelligent or a bad news source. its just, not non biased.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:16 pm

flavor flav wrote:Unless I am mistaken, the socialist ideas that NPR sometimes backs or encourages are not un American. I think many things have been manipulated by spinmasters to bring up automatic negative responses in people when certain words or phrases are mentioned.

I always thought NPR did a very good job of representing democratic viewpoints, and while some of the shows (Travis Smileys, for instance), have a definite leftist bias, I dont think that is any worse than the sometimes ultra conservative (sometimes even fascist) selection of news that wall street journal represents. Im not saying wall street journal is unintelligent or a bad news source. its just, not non biased.

Never said that other "news sources" weren't biased. Most of them are extremely biased. I also don't mind people speaking their mind and being against the now started war. Jeanine Garafolo spoke out against the impending war, but unlike the far left-wing celebrities who simply are against Bush, the US, and the US military, she said exactly why she felt the way that she does, gave her reasoning, was articulate... AND said that she hopes Bush is right, she supports our troops, she is proud to be an American, and if her reasoning/information is wrong that she will "go to the Whitehouse on my knees on broken glass to apologize to President Bush and admit I'm wrong." Now... You can't ask for any more than that. Someone who has looked at the evidence she has available and feels that North Korea is a greater threat and that there are better things to be doing at this time. I respect that. Others (such as Barbra Streisand) who have simply called Bush a "warmonger" and said that they are ashamed of the way America is acting in this matter... I have no respect for them. They have no reasonable articulable suspicion for their words and actions. That is disgusting. Certainly they have the freedom (defended by the US military who they love putting down) to say whatever they want... and I'm all for them having that freedom. BUT, I strongly urge them to exercise another freedom they have... The freedom to LEAVE!

Now, you feel that NPR has done "a very good job of representing democratic viewpoints". Let me point out that the United States is a Constitutional Republic. A democracy is the first step to complete socialism. The analogy is often given as: A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch and the sheep loses to the majority will. A Constitutional Republic is two wolves voting to have the sheep for lunch and finding a well-informed, well-armed sheep pointing out that it has freedom, liberty, and rights that are recognized by the Constitution and that it will protect and defend those freedoms, liberties, and rights from all wolves foreign or domestic! I hope that explains the difference.

And as far as certain words automatically instilling a negative reaction in people, that is true... as it SHOULD be! In fact a socialist group in Massachusetts has recently changed it's name to "Progressive" in order to continue to fool the masses during this time of increased patriotism. And while the Associated Press was reporting that "High school and college students across the country walked out of class Wednesday to protest a war with Iraq, holding a series of rallies organizers predicted would be the biggest campus demonstrations since the Vietnam War..." A little research found that the number of "protestors" (organized by known left-wing outside organizations) rated far less than 1% of the college student populations at those universities where protests were staged!

Hmmmmm....

(Sources: Information Please Almanac, AP, CNN, Daily Californian, Daily Targum)

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:50 pm

flavor flav and Panther

Thanks for keeping this dicussion civil. I'm honored to have all viewpoints expressed, and appreciate it when the discourse is enlightening (as opposed to enraging).

Panther

Good points. I like the wolf and sheep analogy. Our founding fathers were quite brilliant, no? Evidence of protection against tyranny of the masses can be seen in both the constitution as well as the construction of the legislative branch of power.

There is one point though that bugs me. Sorry - this is one of my buttons.

Certainly they have the freedom (defended by the US military who they love putting down) to say whatever they want... and I'm all for them having that freedom. BUT, I strongly urge them to exercise another freedom they have... The freedom to LEAVE!

If you'll pardon a digression here... One of the reasons I got into martial arts is because I was one of those "long-haired hippie types" that was anti Nixon and such. On my summer jobs, a few cretin-minded workers used to regularly threaten bodily harm just because of my physical appearance (that and my anti-Nixon bumper sticker). If it weren't for my Japanese martial arts training (complete with my Japanese karate instructor beating NO RETREAT into our brains...), I might not be typing here today.

Back then, it was America - Love it or leave it.

I was not fond of Nixon, but I loved my country, appreciated my country, and went to college alongside veterans of the Vietnam war. More than a few of them have careers today because this geeky kid (I got into college early) helped these old farts (out of the mainstream) with their classwork.

Barbara Streisand enrages me just like the next person. But I love my country BECAUSE we all have the freedom to make asses of ourselves. If all sides are allowed equal access to the microphone, truth has a way of rising to the top.

A Constitutional Republic is two wolves voting to have the sheep for lunch and finding a well-informed, well-armed sheep pointing out that it has freedom, liberty, and rights that are recognized by the Constitution and that it will protect and defend those freedoms, liberties, and rights from all wolves foreign or domestic !

So you see...we agree after all!

- Bill

IJ · Post by IJ » Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:48 pm

My prediction for the "end result" of this war is: no end. You will never kill all the extremists who hate America, especially when the killing of one enrages four more. Anyone with a little imagination can wreak absolute havoc with very little $ and be a successful terrorist. We are in this for the long haul.

M. Keller · Post by **M. Keller** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:41 am

quote: the killing of one enrages four more

Truly. Civilian casualties are exactly what militant nutballs feed off of in recruit tomorrow's suicide bombers. We're in an awfully precarious situation, so I'm just praying that we get this over with quickly and cleanly.

In the meantime, I've heard Hussein is placing batteries and troops in residential areas.

-Mike

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:34 pm

Ian and Mike

There's truth to what you say. However human behavior can be much more complicated than this.

Another martial student of mine here in Richmond that I work with all the time is Indonesian Muslim. After workout last night, we were talking about things. This fellow was convinced that the U.S. would blow the Iraq regime away, and that would be that. (I think he was being polite...) I pointed out to him that the major factor wasn't the outcome, but how it was achieved. Check world opinion in the Arabic world, and you will see this to be the case.

* How many civilian Iraqi casualties will their be?

* What will be left of the infrastructure and the precious archeological sites in this very significant piece of land?

* Will there be the same humanitarian crisis as after Desert Storm?

* Will the Hussein family be (or are they already) out of the picture?

* What will the state of political affairs be after the war (scores to settle between various religious sects, ethnic groups, loyalists vs. dissidents, etc.)?

* How quickly will there be a representational government in Iraq?

* AND... will we ever find WOMD - the proverbial smoking gun?

Killing begats killing, but overwhelming, merciful, benevolent force often begats peace. The full-blown, "shock and awe" strategy is actually on hold now because the U.S. thinks it can negotiate the Republican Guard into turning on the old regime (whatever is left of it) and ending the whole crisis soon. If that happens, things will quiet very, very quickly. If we end up with a messy urban warfare campaign in the major cities, things could get very tricky.

Remember that The Taliban and Al Quaeda was partially born out of the U.S. funding the Afghan Mujahadin, and then walking away from Afghanistan when the Soviet Union collapsed. The chaos we left in Afghanistan was the fertile ground of 9/11. Having a long term vision in world affairs helps.

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:21 pm

Hi Bill
This really is a confused issue....is 9/11 connected to Afghanistan and Iraq, or are they seperate issues, folks seem to change their opinion every time they go online....when these threads started everybody was saying that the oil wasn't important, that Iraq was a poor little country..then we get closer to the truth and find Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the whole world. I've posted on Panther's forum about this..

But consider this the people responsible for 9/11 weren't Iraqis or Afghans, they were mixed nations, and also consider that 9/11 was an isolated incident, not part of a terrorist campaign. It was well planned and executed,
and I for one can only speculate on the reasons.......first of all I heard on UK news that a truck had exploded outside the Whitehouse.....then a coupla hours later it was a plane

..........What was the reporter thinking, was he blind, stupid..there's a hell of a difference between a plane and a truck....has he still got a job???
But I thought all this will be cleared up in the public enquiry ( I mean America is a free country isn't it.....gotta be an enquiry)...but no.

There are still too many questions unanswered.......I think the American people deserve better( and the UK)...it is our right to know who our enemy is.......it sure as hell ain't Iraq. My fear is that the first we will know is when a school bus explodes, or somebody walks into McDonalds strapped up in a dynamite vest.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:10 pm

Hi, Jorvik!

when these threads started everybody was saying that the oil wasn't important, that Iraq was a poor little country..then we get closer to the truth and find Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the whole world.

I don't think anyone thinks that Iraq is a poor country. It's well known that they have the second largest oil reserves in the world.

What you have though is a situation where a dozen years of sanctions while a tyrant is in charge leads to 90% of the country in terrible shape while the tyrant lines his own pockets and rebuilds his military machine with the oil-for-food money and black market (through Jordan) money. Sanctions almost always are a disaster. They almost always hurt innocents. The world (and UN) is committing a greater tragedy through 12 years of sanctions and years of tolerance for a very bad man. They have not changed Hussein's behavior; they have only given Hussein propaganda via the suffering of innocent people. Meanwhile, the man and his sons and cohorts enjoy life in their many lavish palaces.

And talk about money... Everybody has something in this game. The Russians and French have been making mega bucks via weapons contracts, oil contracts, etc., etc. They have long term contracts and debts, and want to keep these economic/strategic relationships. And for the rest of the world, well oil is a fungible asset. It all goes on the world market, and affects the supply/demand curve. Our own economy, our own rate of inflation, our own tax revenues, trade deficit, national debt, cost of goods, etc., etc. are affected by the price of oil.

But consider this the people responsible for 9/11 weren't Iraqis or Afghans, they were mixed nations

All but one was Saudi, believe it or not.

also consider that 9/11 was an isolated incident, not part of a terrorist campaign

No, no, no!!!!

9/11 was a single part of a broad campaign conducted by Bin Laden and his boys in Afghanistan. The Taliban regime tolerated Bin Laden and his terrorist camps because he's stinkin rich with oil money and keeps them happy (daddy gave him a big inheritance). Many of those people also were once part of the Mujahadin that helped expell the Soviets. When Afghanistan fell into chaos after the fall of the Soviet Union and the abandonment of the U.S. government, we became one more enemy of those people.

Bin Laden et al basically have several issues.

1) They hate the perceived bias towards Israel in the middle east.

2) They do not like American (and/or infidel) influence in the Arab/Muslim world.

3) They understand the strategic importance of oil wealth.

4) Some of them have a vision for "the next Ottoman Empire."

9/11 was not an isolated incident. Al Quaeda trained THOUSANDS of people, and sent them all over the world into cells for later use in various plots against perceived enemies. They were responsible for a foiled plot to blow up the Eiffel Tower. They were responsible for a foiled plot (circa January 1, 2000) to blow up Los Angeles Airport (caught at the Canadian border). They were responsible for the bombing of The Cole. They were responsible for the bombing of several embassies around the world (several in Africa).

Meanwhile, they have trained people in doing things from spreading WOMD to bombing dams to blowing up nuclear power plants to... to...

We chased Al Quaeda out of Afghanistan, seized what assets we could, and removed Afghanistan as a safe haven.

SOME people think Saddam Hussein has been courting Al Quaeda. Personally I think that's a stretch. We do know though that Hussein has been funding terrorist activities (directly and indirectly) for various Palestinian factions. We do know that he has WOMD for sale, and Al Quaeda still has trained operatives that would LOVE to get their hands on some of the stuff.

You can kill a dozen people with a bus bomb. But you can create a REAL mess with a dirty (nuclear) bomb in a highly populated area of strategic economic importance. You can get a few nasty terrorist events out of people who perceive injustice. But when you train them and fund them for years to wait until the right moment to unleash a plot that's years in the making, you've got problems. Bigger bang, nastier stuff, and oil money in bad hands makes for bigger effect and bigger economic impact.

Sh... er... stuff is definitely going on.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:34 pm

jorvik

If you've got Adobe Acrobat Reader (or can download it), you might want to peruse this. It's only the tip of the iceberg.

Al Qaeda Training Manual

Definitely not the works of people engaged in an isolated incident. This, by the way, was evidence against Al Quaeda the FIRST time they tried to take the World Trade Center down (via bombing).

- Bill