Uechi vs Headlocks

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:25 am

Interesting, could you expand on that some?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:41 am

hoshin wrote:
in my opinion the simple answer is ...NO...

our system is not designed to be a "if he does this ,then you do that" style of defense. that is why the cop out responses. BJJ has a very good system structure to deal with questions like that, we do not.

"Interesting" isn't the word I would use. I frankly feel very sorry for someone who has spent any amount of time in Uechi Ryu, and that's all they see. I'm sorry nobody has bothered to open your eyes to the fundamental principles in the Uechi style that frankly most good martial systems share.

Now what you choose to do with those principles - or not - is another story. If you've never spent time with judoka, jiujitsu practitioners, or other grapplers who also know Naha-te, you'll never see it. Inbred martial arts practitioners develop a very narrow view of what "it" is. You need to get out, bro!

BJJ is just another martial arts system. And the way it is practiced, it is more one-on-one sport style than street self-defense style. It has its strong points. It has its issues.

Much of what has been discussed here are techniques and principles found in Uechi Ryu. But if all you see in the system is Dan kumite, well...

I'll stop.

- Bill

P.S. Get out of the dojo! Come visit us some time.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:53 am

We don't train it in the Bunkai.
we don't train it in the traditional Kumite.
This is my reasoning for saying it's not in the system.

For one thing if no one tells you first off you tuck your chin to protect your neck, your not probably going to do it. That comes from getting choked.

If you tucked your chin down in a Kata, your sensei would probably holler at you.

Nice avatar Mike, that your guitar?

F.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:56 am

I don't frequent bars but the last time I was in one in Fort Worth, Texas my friend ended up getting a guy in a headlock over something.
For whatever reason, guys get them into them. It's a primary attack.

F.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:43 am

f.Channell wrote:
We don't train it in the Bunkai.
we don't train it in the traditional Kumite.
This is my reasoning for saying it's not in the system.

For one thing if no one tells you first off you tuck your chin to protect your neck, your not probably going to do it. That comes from getting choked.

If you tucked your chin down in a Kata, your sensei would probably holler at you.

Rant = ON

Holy cr@p! What the hell kind of Uechi are you guys practicing?

You don't tuck your chin in your Sanchin in my dojo, well I have ways to change that...

I am really, really down on youse "They don't teach us those things" guys. What, do you want someone to put a bib on you and spoonfeed you?

Other styles like BJJ are no more and no less formulaic. The only difference I can see is that BJJ spends more time on the mat where you are forced to pick up all the tricks of the trade. If they let you get away with being a kata queen in your Uechi dojo, well... you get what you get.

You gotta get in with people from all styles and start mixing this stuff up. Otherwise you'll never learn a damn thing.

Rant = OFF

There, I feel better now.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:45 am

f.Channell wrote:
don't frequent bars but the last time I was in one in Fort Worth, Texas my friend ended up getting a guy in a headlock over something.
For whatever reason, guys get them into them. It's a primary attack.

F.

Just another HAPV. It's up to us to investigate them all.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:34 am

Well, my friend, actually my neighbor, is undergoing special BJJ training _geared to police officers who end up in these head locks when in unruly crowds, such as when responding to bar fights etc.

He won't have time to become a 'polished' Uechi practitioner....he and other busy Troopers need something that will work 'now' and against some really nasty bastards out to kill them.

So he knows about my practice in Uechi and asks if there is something there for him that would keep him alive in such situations, yet not find himself in trouble for excessive force.

I learned some of the defenses that Fred posted in my judo years and they have imprinted pretty good.

A tough problem for an LEO.

I imagine a really big tough punk around my neck....my first line of defense now is...take out the folder clipped to my right front pocket, snap it open and drive it into the assaillant's leg[s] or whatever else I can get to before going out... screw the 'technique' ....

Remember that such chokes are considered 'deadly force' from a legal viewpoint.

However my Trooper friend says he would find himself in a world of trouble if he did that.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:09 am

f.Channell wrote:Nice avatar Mike, that your guitar?

Yup that's Blondie, my early 70's one of a kind, custom made Grestch. Mom and Dad got for me when I was 17. Blondie is now long retired.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:44 pm

f.Channell wrote:We don't train it in the Bunkai.
we don't train it in the traditional Kumite.
This is my reasoning for saying it's not in the system.

Fred,
I think you are 100% correct, but there's a "but" in there. The but is that there is a formal system that is kata, bunkai, kihon, etc, and then there's the other system which includes the other stuff that's not in the formal system. I don't think I've done any formal system of karate that didn't include this "other system". So does Uechi contain these techniques? I personally don't know as I'm not a Uechi guy, but it wouldn't surprise me that the techniques are being taught regularly.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:46 pm

Van Canna wrote:Well, my friend, actually my neighbor, is undergoing special BJJ training _geared to police officers who end up in these head locks when in unruly crowds, such as when responding to bar fights etc.

He won't have time to become a 'polished' Uechi practitioner....he and other busy Troopers need something that will work 'now' and against some really nasty bastards out to kill them.

Van,
How long is the special training in hours and what is the frequency of training?

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:51 pm

I do practice 4 distinct martial arts systems. What I don't do is take a move from jujitsu and say it was "hidden" in a kata all along. The headlock move I practice is from Nihon Jujitsu Goshin Ho Kata. A variation of it is from Judo http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... uinage.htm

I think any Uechi student who trains in a grappling system wll see the opportunities in the kata, kumite and bunkai. But without long term cross training will not do it effectively. Van trained in Judo some 40 plus years ago, but I've seen him still set up some good effective throws, it stuck with him well.

F.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:04 pm

My first martial art was Jiu Jitsu and we used to do defences against a headlock and a strangle

.However, I have never seen a worthwhile defence against a rear strangle

...someone gets one of those on you and you are done...........we used to practice getting one on a guy and then he would go through the standard defence and coz we were teenagers we wanted to see how far we could go so we would just hang on until he turned purple .nobody I knew ever got out of one....what you have to do is react as it's going on and no later...and as we know with a quarter of a second from attack to responce that is pretty unlikely

.headlocks you have a better chance.you can grab his gonads or give him a donkey bite or if you want the classical Jiu Jitsu defence then you put a straight finger against his nose/septum and push his head backwards with that

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:56 pm

Are you talking like a rear naked choke Jorvik??

Of course put a shoelace or wire in their hands and put that around their neck and goodbye....

F.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:14 pm

But without long term cross training will not do it effectively.

Fred,
I agree. Anyone can learn a technique in one sitting, but it takes a lot of practice to make it part of ones toolkit. I think that's something that many forget or don't want to think about.

Ray,
Here's an escape from the RNC, but of course it's before it's locked on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlGHr3z5K54

Here's one for a standing RNC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGehFPbY ... re=related

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:54 pm

Yeah
I was talking about a rear naked choke.We used to do it from standing, were someone would come up from behind....the ways the guys are doing it on the clip is a lot tamer than the way we did it....you can count in Nano seconds until you hit the Yak kah kah and the lights go out

..........we did some variations as well like pressing the front of your head into the back of their neck and then sort of falling forward into them, while letting your legs drag , so there was no chance of them getting a throw on you , not that there was much of a chance anyway

...another thing to think though is that once you have got that lock on you can manoever around and get a neck crank on and then just drop to your knees and twist them in an unnatural angle and ...well .........make them paraplegic

I have no confidence in any escapes I've been shown for that move.....unless the attack is done in a really compliant and half arsed way