Should women practice martial arts?

[JimHawkins]

Two different ways and kinds of structure:

Both should use closing, both use both arms and body support, both can be used to connect and throw.

Note the opportunity for knees during the transition..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6nBTjiCz5k


In the second clip variation on movements may be used..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hbittGBwo

The quan sao, a high/low (tan/bong) soft 'cover' with both arms can also trap the leg..

Also a counter kick may be fired at the same time..

Classical Structure

Tan-Bong-Side kick (Three actions at once)

Another way is to attack and kick to the center, often ends up in the crotch area, or kick the kicking leg, (depends on type of counter kick used) all else depends on range, angle, timing, etc.

All should maintain an attacking element...

[robb buckland]

Hey Rick ...I enjoyed your post very much..you are quite adept at putting actions into words

[Shana Moore]

Jim and Rick,
You both have given some excellent things to consider. Controlling the center is something I hear often in class and in things I've read, but to think of it in a more dynamic flow and ebb is intriguing.

To think of any reaction as a reaction and set up to your attack should seem obvious, but I like the way Rick approaches it.

Very good posts gentlemen and lots to consider and learn! Thank you both!!

[Van Canna]

Hi Shana,
The following are excerpts from one of the best writings on Uechi Ryu 's _ concepts, as written Mr Elkins, a fine practitioner of both Wing Chun and Uechi. He eventually embraced Uechi Ryu entirely.

Uechi Ryu is a system that is not easily understood at large…especially by the ones who do not practice it properly or have never practiced it, or only practiced it sporadically.

What you see below may be helpful.

Despite superficial differences, Uechi-Ryu shares many commonalities with other southern Chinese boxing styles.

It shares with its sister styles of coastal southern China a concern for protection and attack of the centerline; an immovable elbow line mechanism for generating upper body power; a stable, relatively high fighting stance; the use of narrow stepping and short arm bridges; a predilection for striking with the hands; use of low and middle gate kicks….

This protection and attack of the centerline, immovable elbows and ‘bridging’ are critical especially in situations where off the X evasion is not possible.

At the level of mastery, conscious monitoring will no longer be necessary for even the most subtle physical movement.

The practitioner may at this level of development devote themselves to cultivating a sense of enemy in the movement.

_

This last one … cultivating a sense of enemy in the movement…is a critical component of defensive training, and it is something that many people have trouble embedding in their practice.

FAJIN _ in Uechi
The concept of fajin although multidimensional is neither impenetrable nor unrealizable. Fajin refers to the quality of a movement which is elastic, pulsed or wave-like, and performed with explosively.

If you think of a snake coiling (energy compression) and striking (energy release) you will be well on your way to understanding fajin. Popular martial arts instructor and author, Erle Montaigue, highlights an distinguishing feature of fajin when he states “fajin is not a fast movement, it is not a very fast movement, it is an explosive movement.

This particular aspect is critical for women to learn, as it overcomes the lack of Body mass of women as compared to men, making their strikes much more effective.

Some Uechi Sensei teach the coordination of deflect/grab/and kick by emphasizing the pulling in and immediate snapping out of the grabbing hand.

This application can be seen in vintage films of Uechi Kanei Sensei performing the basic exercises and kata of the style.

Performing the sequence in this manner puts shock power into the grab and pull, power which can potentially produce a whiplash type of effect and knockout an opponent.

This expression of grabbing hand additionally has the advantage of conditioning the practitioner to strike from a grab. Even if the grab is only partially successful, the opponent still gets hit.

We learn from shomen geri that pulling an opponent in to a strike from the same side as a grab is acceptable. You can grab/pull in and kick, knee, or sweep; grab/pull in and hit (as described above); or hook with a leg/pull in and hit, elbow, or head butt.

This ‘pull shock’ is not much seen or practiced…but it is something that I have embraced totally and it is extremely disconcerting to an adversary who does not expect whiplash shock. Be careful how you practice it.

In Wing Chun gung-fu the attack and defense pyramids used in combat are said to possess the quality of multidirectionality, that is, motion that travels in at least two but usually three directions at once.

This quality when combined with juen ging (whirlpool energy) - the application of circular energy to linear motions) results in movement of technique that resembles a drill bit, e.g., encountering an obstacle results in penetration or deflection but not cessation of movement [xxxi]. This is the awesome power of the spiral.

This is where Uechi Ryu really shines…the entering by ‘drilling’ that escapes many.The awesome power of the spiral.

Hope this helps.





.

[chef]

Many like me are visual learners so I really liked Rick's description from his perspective. Many good points made by Robb, Rick, Jim, and Van as well.

Men will always be stronger, no doubt. I find however, I am faster than many men and my Uechi has been great for enabling me to get in close quickly when working two man drills in my Shotokan class.

Bill has been instrumental in teaching us to flow from one movement into another, to use the 'wind-up' of energy correctly in order to get the maximum use power with the body...timing is crucial...transitioning from one movement to another is crucial...footwork is a must.

I am really soaking in everything. Many thanks for your perspectives everyone.

Regards,
Vicki

[chef]

I do think working plyometric exercises is great for working with how to rebound off of one movement, effectively into another.

Do you guys work aspects of this with specific exercises as well?

Curious,
Vicki

[JimHawkins]

Not to start an argument....but..

Not sure I totally agree with the idea of moving away from this type of force..

Aside from "the fade" where you just let it pass and then get behind them--a good option depending on range..

We assume we are going in here..

In this case a round kick.. Well we know there are different kinds of round kicks.. Some Uechi folks have called the first type "flicky schit".. This type is snappy and does not follow through.. The second type does follow through and is more similar to other circular attacks..

The Muay Thai round kick as trained by some, will actually spin all the way around 360 degrees to the original starting point (if they miss), so they have deep penetration for a very wide range.. Other circular kicks, the Wheel kick has the same energy pattern.. A swinging bat as well, etc..

In the case of the flicky round kick then I agree that moving (in and) away from it is okay..

In the case of the deep penetrating circular force then I see it another way because its force does not drop off rapidly past the center point, it continues.. Giving the tool ANY additional time or room could mean moving into a "hot spot"--also moving away from the RK means moving right in front of his guns.

Now, there is another issue here.. Speed.. We must assume that the opponent is faster.. So we also must assume we have very little time to move at all.. That means we won't be able to move very much or far in range..

Given that, I submit that shutting down the attack sooner in space and time is safer because it's going back in time and in momentum.. The sooner (on it's path) you stop (interrupt) the motion the less energy is going to develop.

Also we know the deeper into the center (closer range) you go the more you are in the eye of the storm.. Being more inside the storm or closer to the core the less energy their is as well in the tool, leg, arm, bat, etc..

Additionally we want to issue force (challenge) the structure of the opponent ASAP with our structure and energy to fill the center that is open. Not just move and not make a connection.. In order to do this we must make a connection with him ASAP.

So, if we can only move a small distance before the weapon reaches us, I submit the thrust of the movement must be simply closer to the center and also closer to the weapon core... This is not more dangerous IME it's safer because you accomplish, getting to the the weapon sooner, you establish contact sooner, you're aligned sooner and you use less motion all the way around and so you convert sooner..

The energy is not force on force, rather its directed more into the center "shearing" past the attacking weapon and into their weak angle. The connection is deeper in to the center and closer to the eye of the storm--you are now attacking.

In making such contact the connection should be thought of as a conversion to attack, or simply as an attack.. The structure is used to fill the center space violently to disrupt and begin a full blown finish. If done with sufficient body power then the idea would be to knock them down just before the kick develops real power and before their weight is projected forward, while yours already is.

The two examples I posted both do this or can do much the same thing, shutting down the attack...

I would be interested to hear if smaller folks try it against bigger folks both ways and see how it feels to them. Make sure your partner follows through with the move..

Again the key IMO is issuing force and shutting down ASAP, not blocking or delaying even a nanosecond..

[robb buckland]

In boxing we use the term rolling with the punches ..."taking a punch".
Obviously it's not "healthy" to absorb the energy of any attack buuuuut subtle shifting within our fluid posture or as some refer to as our 'fighting stance" would be the way to set up for the "deflection " an opponent or partner with good follow through(Thai or Bondofighters) use 360 degree follow through as was previously mentioned....respond to this by shifting back 10% and pivoting in or out depending on the angle of attack followed by a pendulum like cuffing motion with the lead hand.Not to be confused with a downward block ! Van mentioned the spiral...it feels like arm rubbing but w/arm against leg !!!
I believe this is described in Joe Lewis's Blackbelt Manual I'll check the page tonight !!! Robb
(touch and go !)

".....The energy is not force on force, rather its directed more into the center "shearing" past the attacking weapon and into their weak angle. The connection is deeper in to the center and closer to the eye of the storm--you are now attacking. ....."

".......it feels like arm rubbing but w/arm against leg !!!....."

"......Fajin refers to the quality of a movement which is elastic, pulsed or wave-like, and performed with explosively.{..}If you think of a snake coiling (energy compression) and striking (energy release).........

"......push hands....."

[Shana Moore]

Mr Elkins, a fine practitioner of both Wing Chun and Uechi. {...} It shares with its sister styles of coastal southern China a concern for protection and attack of the centerline; an immovable elbow line mechanism for generating upper body power; a stable, relatively high fighting stance; the use of narrow stepping and short arm bridges; a predilection for striking with the hands; use of low and middle gate kicks{...}The practitioner may at this level of development devote themselves to cultivating a sense of enemy in the movement{...}FAJIN _ in Uechi{...}Fajin refers to the quality of a movement which is elastic, pulsed or wave-like, and performed with explosively.{..}If you think of a snake coiling (energy compression) and striking (energy release) you will be well on your way to understanding fajin. {...}the quality of multidirectionality, that is, motion that travels in at least two but usually three directions at once.

Lots of stuff here to check out Vann, thank you!

First, can you provide Mr. Elkin's full name? I'll search the forum as well, but want to check out what writings he has to offer.

I was understanding the point of your post until we got to Fajin, and then I'm not sure I "got it" or not. So please allow me to do a knowldge check here:

When I was kayaking a few months ago, I got hte distinct pleasure of watching a mother egret teaching her children to fish. I was fascinated by the motion, as she actually pulls back and coils her head. Then she uncoils and whips forward and back to grab the fish. The motion is undeniably fast, I believe because she was unleashing the torque inherent in her whole body and this spring/recoil action naturally "snapped back". She was also finely focused on a very small point (similar to a shoken vs a normal fist).

Does that come close to the concept?

My question on this, is how do you make sure that push/pull coil/uncoil motion doesn't...bounce? Thus losing it's effectiveness? How do you assure the impact has enough time on contact? Am I missing something important here?

I'm noticing the Jim, Rick, and Vann all seem to focus on the simultaneous action/reaction paradigm as well (2-3 motions at once)...and the focus on drill and train repetitively.

Great stuff gentlemen, keep it coming!

[Rick Wilson]

Shana, his full name is David Elkins and I am proud to say he is my Karate brother.

Jim:

“Not to start an argument....

Not sure I totally agree with the idea of moving away from this type of force..”

Absolutely no need to agree with me Jim.

It is good for the readers to have different views to play with. There are stages of learning to deal with the roundhouse kick and I would think at the later stages we have less disagreement.

I do not advise smaller people to move into the incoming force of a kick thrown by a person who can truly throw a mass kick.

I prefer they absorb and move with the force.

I really prefer with training they close and absorb (which involves entering but at the same time moving away from the force in a small circle because of the closing) while attacking.

Closing and absorbing does not challenge the force which is what is gets smaller people hurt. I am not saying you said to do that.

I am glad you posted your disagreement because I pondered commenting on the clips you posted.

The first clip from Fight Science is good because it works off of shutting the kick down before it has power by attacking close to the base of the lever (the thigh) rather than out on the lever the shin.

Except that if a person kicks by driving straight with the knee as many Uechika do then this makes intercepting the thigh harder as the driving knee still has power from the launch.

The second point with this method is it requires a lot of timing, but that is a training issue.

I would also use an elliptical approach rather than direct force on (what could be) force. I prefer to hit force at an angle not head on regardless if I think I might have more force than the incoming strike. Bad if you are proven wrong.

The second clip could have been the class Rick Bottomley watched me teach that many years ago. It is all about challenging and shutting down the kick.

From what I could see of the clip (and it is wrong to completely judge anything from a brief youtube clip) the high kicks were an example of people kicking to the arm and not through the target.

There are times when this can work because people often unintentionally pull at that point of contact but a person who kicks through the target as they should has lots of power by that height and a forearm will not stand up to it.

The other clips are challenging and shutting down the kick and as you saw there was never a size or power differential in the participants. This happens to be a very typical Uechi approach and the hope is to shut down the kick before the power gets to full potential.

However, the clashing of shins with a smaller person and a larger person who kicks through usually goes poorly for the smaller person even before the full power point.

While I am sure this is just training I hope they go without the shin pads at times as well because if you are not conditioned for that clash then you are going to do as much damage in the street to yourself as to the other guy and the shock can be surprising.

Clashing and challenging to shut down a kick is all about beating the kicker to their power point.

Good but only one part of the method. I saw a little too much force on force which is where the size difference comes into play. No size differential in the participants.

And again I have to say the kicks are not driven through with mass on this clip but again very hard to critic such a small clip (and unfair to them). I have to make the observation though but we can’t judge their training from it properly. Attacking an incoming weapon from an angle is my preference because then you do not go force on force.

Having worked with excellent mass kicking folk like Dave Chow I have a great respect for that incoming baseball bat. Hoping to beat it to the power point when there is a size differential is a risk I prefer to teach without at first until they learn to absorb then we can close (shut down) and absorb at the same time.

Folks this is simply a small disagreement of approaches and it is very good for the readers of the thread to have a variety of approaches to play with and see what works best for their size.

My suggestion is find people who know how to kick and are bigger than you and pad up for safety and try everything out.

When you think you have found what works – take the pads off and don't hold back.

All the best everyone.

[Stryke]

I would also use an elliptical approach rather than direct force on (what could be) force.

I agree with entering with an arc that complements there line of force .

you can take the centre and merge with there attack .

you can get to applications that involve spinning away there force .

Muay Thai kicks while circular still very much have a sweet spot .

but yeah against a good kicker its hard work . And pre-emptive/shut down is always king

[JimHawkins]

I do not advise smaller people to move into the incoming force of a kick thrown by a person who can truly throw a mass kick.

Well part of the caveat of this problem as I understand it is to work from a point of disadvantage.

So I am assuming we can't avoid the kick.

I am also assuming that the kick is coming fast and so any movement will be minor, a very small amount or maybe none will be possible..

I mean we could talk about doing a scissor sweep but there was the element of "blocking" brought up..

The first clip from Fight Science is good because it works off of shutting the kick down before it has power by attacking close to the base of the lever (the thigh) rather than out on the lever the shin.

Agreed, and such is part of what I am suggesting in both methods.

IMO and IME moving in is the only less energetic area because a couple of inches away is still in the same power band.. Not the case with a linear attack of course. But a couple of inches earlier in this kick will mean less power as will inches closer to the center also mean less power..

Except that if a person kicks by driving straight with the knee as many Uechika do then this makes intercepting the thigh harder as the driving knee still has power from the launch.

And this is a benefit from using structure to fill the space.. This is a specialized set of shapes and energy.. The structure in the second example which is hard to see helps to diffuse the power by using both arms in a soft manner supported by the body. Moreover, the energy issuing is also done via this structure.. The structure in question is more easily seen in the pic of Bruce I posted and as seen can be used with a leg attack.. These compound shapes are for just this kind of power management..

IMO even less re-enforced shapes, single arm, could work for a small person these compound shapes with both arms IMO are more than sufficient in all but the most disproportionate match ups.. And again if there is no time to really move then you need a shield to hit them with.

I would also use an elliptical approach rather than direct force on (what could be) force. I prefer to hit force at an angle not head on regardless if I think I might have more force than the incoming strike. Bad if you are proven wrong.

Again I'm not suggesting force on force.. Generally the force is delivered directing into the center or weak angle..

The second clip could have been the class Rick Bottomley watched me teach that many years ago. It is all about challenging and shutting down the kick.

From what I could see of the clip (and it is wrong to completely judge anything from a brief youtube clip) the high kicks were an example of people kicking to the arm and not through the target.

There are times when this can work because people often unintentionally pull at that point of contact but a person who kicks through the target as they should has lots of power by that height and a forearm will not stand up to it.

The force is split here between both arms and the structure of the arms and body.. The counter vector of the energy is not directly into the force, or shouldn't be..

IME a smaller person can use this kind of structure successfully to shut down the attack by moving into the eye of the storm and energizing their defense. I see this use of structure as one of the most effective uses of the bridges for managing a lot of power.

I do agree moving offline is the norm for me most of the time but in certain conditions there is no time or need imo..

I don't see moving off line two or three inches at most here as helping to diffuse much energy and I have tried it. I do see moving in and stopping the motion *with structure* a few inches sooner as of much more benefit and more proactive for conversion. Also IMO there should be no delay in issuing a counter force which is the trade off if one chooses not to issue energy immediately.

Folks can certainly try it both ways and see how they feel.

[Rick Wilson]

I understand the arm position.

We simply disagree on what a person who kicks with mass properly can do to that structure.

I see that a small circle can do wonders in close.

Different views all good for exploration.

[JimHawkins]

I understand the arm position.

We simply disagree on what a person who kicks with mass properly can do to that structure.

I see that a small circle can do wonders in close.

Different views all good for exploration.

It seems we agree on going in..

But I fail to see how movement away a couple of inches changes this equation for the better. Shutting down means shutting down.. I used to advocate angling away too, but I changed.

And btw: Imperfections in the folks in the example has nothing to do with the concepts I'm talking about.


My point is...

Two inches sooner is safer than two inches later.. I don't beleive in letting these kinds of moves get past their mid point because then they are HOTTER.

But if they are atomic I don't see 2 inches later making them less so. Two inches past midpoint is HOTTER than two inches before midpoint IF they have follow through...

Do we not agree on this?


I also don't see most round kicks from 99% of folks as atomic non stoppers at all.. Most don't even turn the hip over.. Kicking is such a fleeting range anyway, how many grapplers have much trouble slipping inside--hell they'll jump right on the kicking leg and use it as a lever.....

Getting the knee up first IMO can limit follow through depending how it's done, it can also telegraph and become a target itself.

Then we also have the wheel kick, the bat, stick, etc, all develop max power after the midpoint..

We all have limits and no method will stop a bomb aimed at 'mini me'.

I came up on these particular shapes, the energy used with them and all the variants of quan sao. I know where the sweet spot is and how to move with them. There is a best way to receive force, and IMO this is it under these limited conditions. There is also the counter element which also serves to defang the energy.

But let's say we have no time to move, then what is to be used?

Some kind of structure is needed in this problem is it not? Let's see better structure.

[JimHawkins]

Just as a further reference for some of these ideas..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0FFREzcg

This doesn't represent the best, ideal, most correct use of anything just some concepts at work.. It's always up to the individual to make use of it or not.

Some other kinds of a womanly use of force..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1js5eD-1xVM