tai chi masters

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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

The Tai Chi which I always see is more of an exercise. This is totally fine, I think anything which appeals to people and gets them active is great. If push hands gives old ladies a bit of dynamic resistance and does good for them great.

And the fact that it is a part of some peoples training who compete full contact doesn't surprise me. It has some meditational qualities.

But I could take a knitting class and jam a needle in some guys skull on the way home when attacked and that doesn't mean knitting is a martial art.

F.
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

f.Channell wrote: The Tai Chi which I always see is more of an exercise.
Sure, form work... The problem is that is often all they do, same problem in some other arts.
f.Channell wrote: If push hands gives old ladies a bit of dynamic resistance and does good for them great.
Most of these folks ain't doing PH since in real PH folks are often trying to knock you on your arse..
f.Channell wrote: And the fact that it is a part of some peoples training who compete full contact doesn't surprise me. It has some meditational qualities.
Well good TC has much more IMO than meditation value, it has a complete system of training.
f.Channell wrote: But I could take a knitting class and jam a needle in some guys skull on the way home when attacked and that doesn't mean knitting is a martial art.
Well TC is as much a MA as any other TMA, but it has become widely used as simply an exercise--with the MA understanding of the art omitted--that's the problem--again same in many other arts.... And even arts that spar/fight are very often not actually using the material in the system--in the forms--in this case there is still a disconnect and contradiction in training.
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

JimHawkins wrote:
f.Channell wrote: The Tai Chi which I always see is more of an exercise.
Sure, form work... The problem is that is often all they do, same problem in some other arts.
f.Channell wrote: If push hands gives old ladies a bit of dynamic resistance and does good for them great.
Most of these folks ain't doing PH since in real PH folks are often trying to knock you on your arse..
f.Channell wrote: And the fact that it is a part of some peoples training who compete full contact doesn't surprise me. It has some meditational qualities.
Well good TC has much more IMO than meditation value, it has a complete system of training.
f.Channell wrote: But I could take a knitting class and jam a needle in some guys skull on the way home when attacked and that doesn't mean knitting is a martial art.
Well TC is as much a MA as any other TMA, but it has become widely used as simply an exercise--with the MA understanding of the art omitted--that's the problem--again same in many other arts.... And even arts that spar/fight are very often not actually using the material in the system--in the forms--in this case there is still a disconnect and contradiction in training.
I agree for the most part.

It just suffers from what uechi-ryu, wing chun, hung gar and alot of other styles suffer from.


On the hsing i, i didnt really elaborate on the question propersly, but you answered the questions anyway without much lacking. Thanks!



Good news is that Taiji, Hsing i and pa kua seem to be making come backs, all thanks to san shou.
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

"But I could take a knitting class and jam a needle in some guys skull on the way home when attacked and that doesn't mean knitting is a martial art."

The ironic thing is that if you did that, knitting would actually be a martial art. :wink:

I hear that knitting has meditational qualities. :lol:
2Green
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Post by 2Green »

Well TC is as much a MA as any other TMA, but it has become widely used as simply an exercise--with the MA understanding of the art omitted--that's the problem--again same in many other arts.... And even arts that spar/fight are very often not actually using the material in the system--in the forms--in this case there is still a disconnect and contradiction in training. (Jim Hawkins)

---------------------------------

I agree for the most part.

It just suffers from what uechi-ryu, wing chun, hung gar and alot of other styles suffer from. (Ahmed)
-------------------------

And if you could elaborate, Ahmed, what IS that, exactly, that all these "and a lot of other styles" suffer from, in your experience?
Do you have at least a Dan rank in any or several of these styles?

NM
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

2Green wrote:Well TC is as much a MA as any other TMA, but it has become widely used as simply an exercise--with the MA understanding of the art omitted--that's the problem--again same in many other arts.... And even arts that spar/fight are very often not actually using the material in the system--in the forms--in this case there is still a disconnect and contradiction in training. (Jim Hawkins)

---------------------------------

I agree for the most part.

It just suffers from what uechi-ryu, wing chun, hung gar and alot of other styles suffer from. (Ahmed)
-------------------------

And if you could elaborate, Ahmed, what IS that, exactly, that all these "and a lot of other styles" suffer from, in your experience?
Do you have at least a Dan rank in any or several of these styles?

NM

Oh you mean when i talk about being a greeen belt who has nothing to fear from MC DOJO black belts?

Or how a year ago there was video of black belts running from fear against some white belts?(Uechi-ryu)

Or TOUCH CONTACT training advertised as Delf-defence?



Thats what im talking about.

Im not bashing the styles, im just stating whats wrong within the 'community' of these styles.

Like how Taiji, like many McDojo karate schools DO advertise self defence but do only form work and no drills. Prove it? Look in this thread.

Were fortunate to have badass people on this message board who are tried and proven and try to keep it real.

But is it everywhere?

Hell even BJJ is starting to have crap seeping into it, though that is debatable.
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

I took a judo class for a couple months though the salvation army.

I grabbed the assistant instructor behind the knees and drove my shoulder into his hip. He levitated for a second and then slammed into the mat with a cross expression on his face. Ergo Judo *****.

I used a judo technique to slam the assistant instructor into the mat. Ergo judo rules!

Another student who started at the same time as me kept reaping my forward leg in randori, until I started getting really pissed. Ergo his judo rules, mine *****.

After slamming into the mat several times and losing all faith in god, the head instructor yells out some Japanese word and I execute a perfect hip throw without thought or effort. Ergo judo frickin' rules!

No one was grievously injured during the foregoing, ergo judo *****.

I wasn't injured, and had a great time learning some cool techniques/principles that could save my life, ergo judo rules!

My youngest brother, 7 or 8 years old, who took the same class for a year or two, had a friend over for the night. Bigger and obviously a "tough" kid compared to my brother. During the night I hear some loud words and some scuffling. Then I hear my brother giggling, followed by a loud crashing sound. Then I hear the tough kid asking my brother to leave him alone. :lol:

Judo rules! :lol:
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

fivedragons wrote:I took a judo class for a couple months though the salvation army.

I grabbed the assistant instructor behind the knees and drove my shoulder into his hip. He levitated for a second and then slammed into the mat with a cross expression on his face. Ergo Judo *****.

I used a judo technique to slam the assistant instructor into the mat. Ergo judo rules!

Another student who started at the same time as me kept reaping my forward leg in randori, until I started getting really pissed. Ergo his judo rules, mine *****.

After slamming into the mat several times and losing all faith in god, the head instructor yells out some Japanese word and I execute a perfect hip throw without thought or effort. Ergo judo frickin' rules!

No one was grievously injured during the foregoing, ergo judo *****.

I wasn't injured, and had a great time learning some cool techniques/principles that could save my life, ergo judo rules!

My youngest brother, 7 or 8 years old, who took the same class for a year or two, had a friend over for the night. Bigger and obviously a "tough" kid compared to my brother. During the night I hear some loud words and some scuffling. Then I hear my brother giggling, followed by a loud crashing sound. Then I hear the tough kid asking my brother to leave him alone. :lol:

Judo rules! :lol:

Awsome post.


And judo rules.
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

flash forward ten years later. My brother is now seventeen and is the same size as me, and play baseball for the high school. He mouths off at me so I pretend to hit him with five or six elbows to the jaw. He gets me in a standing guillotine, ( That damn judo). As he starts laughing at the old fart, I grab his wrist, pull my head out from his arm, and pick him up by the seat of his pants. Now I'm holding him up in the air by his wrist in the front and his pants in the back. He's thrashing around and kicking his feet in mid-air. Then I put him down and say "I would have f#cked you up with those elbows." :lol:

Karate rules! :lol:
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

But...but karate people dont elbow! We use reverse punches!

Osu!
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

:wink: :lol:

We use whatever's handy. :wink: :lol:

You'd be surprised. One of my teachers practices iron palm as well as all kinds of "spiritual" foo foo chi kung. He was a combat marine in Vietnam. When I bought a new knife and was trying to ask him if I could attack kyusho points to disable an attacker, he just looked at me with an evil grin and said "why don't you just cut his nose off?" :lol:

That was probably the best lesson I ever got in martial arts.

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

If someone filmed a typical class while we where doing chi kung or cardio kickboxing, :roll: :lol: the place would be known as the mcdojo of the world, but this dude is evil, and he is very good at what he does. He would explain that most people will never be able to use karate because we are culturally conditioned from childhood on to punch with a closed fist. He will teach anyone, knowing full well that it doesn't mean anything more than a healthy outlet for kids. Is it his fault? No, it's the fault of the people who pay him money for something they don't really want, understand or are willing to work for.
Last edited by fivedragons on Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Yeah that is an awsome lesson: The art of taking shiney metal objects and inserting them into soft fleshy objects.
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

That is the lesson that has been learned by the people who we take karate to protect ourselves from, Adam.

I value life more than anything. More than any amount of money or pride. I have known a whole lot of people who don't feel this way. If any of these people happen to be around me while they act up, they will regret it. That, to me is what karate is all about. :(

Osu!
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

fivedragons wrote:That is the lesson that has been learned by the people who we take karate to protect ourselves from, Adam.

I value life more than anything. More than any amount of money or pride. I have known a whole lot of people who don't feel this way. If any of these people happen to be around me while they act up, they will regret it. That, to me is what karate is all about. :(

Osu!

Yeah pretty much.
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

2Green wrote: And if you could elaborate, Ahmed, what IS that, exactly, that all these "and a lot of other styles" suffer from, in your experience?
Do you have at least a Dan rank in any or several of these styles?
Interesting...

Lots of "stuff" here but I'll say this..

You have the art and you have the people doing it..

Is the art valid?

It is if it's a known and definable set of methods that is made up of strategic solutions for some set of problems.

This must be definable and clear and relate and explain why and what the things are within the style, and how and why all these things fit together and how it does what it does—the art must be known.

There must also be a known road map, a methodology of how to take students from point A to point B all the way to Z, and that finally instills these ideas, skills and methods into the student on a physical level.

In the end the style is a method of training that has a clear set of reasons behind it that all fit together into a supporting set of strategies.

If the system is clearly definable point by point as a comprehensive set of strategies/concepts that run through all the elements in it then the style is valid unto itself..

If the system is not clearly definable point by point as a comprehensive set of strategies/concepts, etc then it is not a valid style unto itself, though it may have once been..

If you agree with the ideas of the system--which are clearly defined--then the style is valid for you.

If you agree with the ideas of the system--which are NOT clearly defined--then the style is still valid for you.

Then you have the people doing the style..

Are they really doing the style based on the first question?

If so where are they taking those skills? The training at this point is valid for the person if he/she *thinks* it is valid..

The question is: What's real and what's BS?

It all depends on the context and the person.

You don't need a Dan rank in all styles to assess the concepts and theories of a style, you just need to be familiar with the strategies and training rational—if you are then you can assess the value of the concepts—for you, based on your objectives and needs--these things may, of course, change later.

You don't need a Dan rank in all styles to assess the performance of people doing a style, you just need to see them perform within the context of whatever the style claims to do—if they can "do it" then the performance is valid.

That said... Most arts ******..! :crazyeyes: :lying: :silly: :lying: :lol:
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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