I'm noticing a real distinction in techniques that is hard to make my students understand. Some techniques rely on gravity and looseness to work. You have to "let" these techniques happen. If there is any noticeable muscle tension the technique is slowed or ineffective.
Examples would be dead-hand strikes, some of the entries, spiral 'sticky' locks (especially spine controls) and dropping into stances for speed or power generation.
Other techniques, like linear strikes (though the antagonist muscles should be loose) you have to _make_ happen. If you use the mechanics or mindset of the 'loose' techniques, the strike is completely ineffective.
I can work out some of the mechanics of this and at this stage I'm pretty much thinking out loud... but is there a more direct way to explain this to students, a principle or category so that I don't have to explain for each technique whether it is 'let' or make'?
Rory
Letting vs. Making
Moderator: Available
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Rick Wilson
Rory:
The secret is in teaching them to throw a punch. Sorry couldn’t resist.
I really do mean to teach them to “throw” a punch.
Thinking of throwing the hand out there helps the student learn to relax the antagonist muscles. However, throwing is making it happen.
Too often the student cannot given up pushing the strike out and tenses incorrectly. Or, as you said Rory, they equate relaxed with limp.
I get them to use a heel palm or a relaxed fist. Have them simply “throw their hand away.” At first they may be too relaxed but as they work at it and try to throw harder they begin to get the idea.
Then introduce a hand held pad. The shock they will have is that they will not feel the harder strikes like they do the tense ones. This is because all the energy of the strike is transferred into the target and less remains in the hand to give that “feeling.”
Just a thought.
The secret is in teaching them to throw a punch. Sorry couldn’t resist.
I really do mean to teach them to “throw” a punch.
Thinking of throwing the hand out there helps the student learn to relax the antagonist muscles. However, throwing is making it happen.
Too often the student cannot given up pushing the strike out and tenses incorrectly. Or, as you said Rory, they equate relaxed with limp.
I get them to use a heel palm or a relaxed fist. Have them simply “throw their hand away.” At first they may be too relaxed but as they work at it and try to throw harder they begin to get the idea.
Then introduce a hand held pad. The shock they will have is that they will not feel the harder strikes like they do the tense ones. This is because all the energy of the strike is transferred into the target and less remains in the hand to give that “feeling.”
Just a thought.
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
Rory,
Take a look at my post on soft and hard circles?
Okay Its masonery but it cross ref;11 years ago I attained masters status ,with the guild of master craftsman ,a guild that goes back to medievel times ,within these circles there is similar knowledge of what you are becoming more aware of in your art ,allthough different in art ,the very same principles can be found in posture /balance /movement ,handling skill ,releasing skill use of rotational spin with correct angulation ,and a ubderstanding of angulation to harmonise with gravity .
Rory ,I think you will make great progress this coming new year in uderstanding and passing on to your students these concepts /principles etc ,all the best in the new year .
max.
Take a look at my post on soft and hard circles?
Okay Its masonery but it cross ref;11 years ago I attained masters status ,with the guild of master craftsman ,a guild that goes back to medievel times ,within these circles there is similar knowledge of what you are becoming more aware of in your art ,allthough different in art ,the very same principles can be found in posture /balance /movement ,handling skill ,releasing skill use of rotational spin with correct angulation ,and a ubderstanding of angulation to harmonise with gravity .
Rory ,I think you will make great progress this coming new year in uderstanding and passing on to your students these concepts /principles etc ,all the best in the new year .
max.
max ainley
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Very interesting responses, indeed.
I just got through with a session a few weeks about with Shinyu Gushi. He's a student of many of the greatest instructors (Uehara, the elder (deceased) Shinjo Seiyu, etc.).
Gushi sensei made a distinction between the harder movements of the first two major forms in the system (Sanchin and Seisan), and the softer, more elastic movements in Sanseiryu.
Indeed you write...
I don't know, Rory... I'm still getting my arms around it myself. Sometimes I see it as more than a yin or a yang thing, but you can dichotomize it at first. These relaxed techniques have a different feel to them.
Gravity and the "letting" things go ring true to me. Sometimes I see beginners having trouble with a simple shuto down to the forearm in Uechi arm pounding (kotekitae). If they've ever chopped wood, they have a chance. I like to remind them of the scene in Seven Samurai where the group knows they want to recruit a particular swordsman just by the way he is chopping wood. It's falling with gravity, and then taking the wave out your arms, through your hands, and into the blade of the ax. You don't PUSH the ax into the wood.
I'm not sure I've helped you much yet, Rory, but I think I understand where you are coming from.
- Bill
I just got through with a session a few weeks about with Shinyu Gushi. He's a student of many of the greatest instructors (Uehara, the elder (deceased) Shinjo Seiyu, etc.).
Gushi sensei made a distinction between the harder movements of the first two major forms in the system (Sanchin and Seisan), and the softer, more elastic movements in Sanseiryu.
Indeed you write...
...and you are describing the way the power meisters like to do Uechi Sanchin. Gushi sensei can put on quite the bare-chested tiger display. And then you write...techniques, like linear strikes (though the antagonist muscles should be loose) you have to _make_ happen. If you use the mechanics or mindset of the 'loose' techniques, the strike is completely ineffective.
...and you are describing this relaxed, elastic energy Gushi showed in Sanseiryu. In his compression/expansion movements, I see the neuromuscular energy trained in plyometrics. And those dynamic stretch reflexes can't be triggered unless you first let go and throw caution to the wind.Some techniques rely on gravity and looseness to work. You have to "let" these techniques happen. If there is any noticeable muscle tension the technique is slowed or ineffective.
I don't know, Rory... I'm still getting my arms around it myself. Sometimes I see it as more than a yin or a yang thing, but you can dichotomize it at first. These relaxed techniques have a different feel to them.
Gravity and the "letting" things go ring true to me. Sometimes I see beginners having trouble with a simple shuto down to the forearm in Uechi arm pounding (kotekitae). If they've ever chopped wood, they have a chance. I like to remind them of the scene in Seven Samurai where the group knows they want to recruit a particular swordsman just by the way he is chopping wood. It's falling with gravity, and then taking the wave out your arms, through your hands, and into the blade of the ax. You don't PUSH the ax into the wood.
I'm not sure I've helped you much yet, Rory, but I think I understand where you are coming from.
- Bill
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lookingglass
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:37 am
- Location: oklahoma
hey how about this
ahhh
Last edited by lookingglass on Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Email me at Lookingglassk@yahoo.com for questions or comments.
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lookingglass
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:37 am
- Location: oklahoma
hey how about this
I was talking to my girl friend about uechi and she thought it looked simple and not like anything that a martial arts actor on tv would do.
I told her it was like preforming a punch.
I asked her if she was bench pressing a 20lbs bar then that would be easy enough.
She answered, "yes".
I asked her if she was floating in water on her back could she bench 10lbs.
She said "no"
I said because you would have nothing to base or hold you up.
That is the difference in a strong punch and a thrown out weak punch. One has power and force the other has just a strike. Some people are strong enought with that strike to do some damage but let me explain more...
If I gave you a ice pick and asked you to stick it in a board, you would stave it some how in an upward motion to stick it.
If I put you agaist the wall and asked you to you would more then likely push that ice pick deeper into the board.
In uechi you are using the dynamic strength of your body to give yourself that base or support in the punch.
This happens with out the force lunge and coming or stepping in possible coming off balence...
If that does not make sence then please help me to explain it.
To practise it I like to stand a few inches from the wave bag and hands up then throw one punches in the sanchin stance until the wobbling of the bag pushes it out so my arms extend fully then I step in and start over on the other foot.
I hate seeing boxers who can not punch in the clinch.
I try to focus it like the one inch punch of Bruce Lee but have not gained that much power.
Come on I am not that good...
I prefer to believe I am over weight not out of shape.
I just have to lose the weight. Got a new idea and plan.
You cant gain muscle and lose weight at the same time. So I gave up on the gaining muscle and that is something that cause me to see saw the weight back up.
Light weight high reps and cardio for me please.
I can still curl a 65lbs dumbbell once but will be concentrating on push ups and bag work for now on until I am slimmer.
Dive bombs and push ups are the worst.
I was benching 170lbs 30 times in a set and then moving to 155 and doing another 30 then bag work 3 times a week and working out the other parts back legs bicepts and such in a circuit but that got tiresome and took too much time.
So I thought push up will be easy...Nope they are the worst and that is why I want to concentrate on them.
Sorry went long and did not spell check or do the grammer thing.
Ken
I told her it was like preforming a punch.
I asked her if she was bench pressing a 20lbs bar then that would be easy enough.
She answered, "yes".
I asked her if she was floating in water on her back could she bench 10lbs.
She said "no"
I said because you would have nothing to base or hold you up.
That is the difference in a strong punch and a thrown out weak punch. One has power and force the other has just a strike. Some people are strong enought with that strike to do some damage but let me explain more...
If I gave you a ice pick and asked you to stick it in a board, you would stave it some how in an upward motion to stick it.
If I put you agaist the wall and asked you to you would more then likely push that ice pick deeper into the board.
In uechi you are using the dynamic strength of your body to give yourself that base or support in the punch.
This happens with out the force lunge and coming or stepping in possible coming off balence...
If that does not make sence then please help me to explain it.
To practise it I like to stand a few inches from the wave bag and hands up then throw one punches in the sanchin stance until the wobbling of the bag pushes it out so my arms extend fully then I step in and start over on the other foot.
I hate seeing boxers who can not punch in the clinch.
I try to focus it like the one inch punch of Bruce Lee but have not gained that much power.
Come on I am not that good...
I prefer to believe I am over weight not out of shape.
I just have to lose the weight. Got a new idea and plan.
You cant gain muscle and lose weight at the same time. So I gave up on the gaining muscle and that is something that cause me to see saw the weight back up.
Light weight high reps and cardio for me please.
I can still curl a 65lbs dumbbell once but will be concentrating on push ups and bag work for now on until I am slimmer.
Dive bombs and push ups are the worst.
I was benching 170lbs 30 times in a set and then moving to 155 and doing another 30 then bag work 3 times a week and working out the other parts back legs bicepts and such in a circuit but that got tiresome and took too much time.
So I thought push up will be easy...Nope they are the worst and that is why I want to concentrate on them.
Sorry went long and did not spell check or do the grammer thing.
Ken
Email me at Lookingglassk@yahoo.com for questions or comments.
I am not certain if this comment quite fits this particular threat, and I am only addressing a small aspect of striking..
I had problems with a coupe of students teaching them to "throw" a punch. Although the physical movement is not quite the same---I grabbed a couple of tennis balls. We tossed them back and forth. They I noted that an arm weights 10 + pounds--for some of us much more. If you think of punching, or striking as "throwing" your fist or arm..like a tennis ball--you can use gravity to your advantage....you "throw" your fist through the target, and your body moves with the same sort of twisting motion---you throw with your whole body---relaxed....using gravity, the actual thing you are throwing has weight and mass.
I work the makawara daily, the strikes however are not as powerful or penetrating as striking a pad with the "relaxed-tension" of tossing a ball.
Bill: When Master Gushi does Sanseiryu, many of those rapid and penetrating strikes are done with this sort of relaxed tension. In Master Gushi's last visit to our school we discussed punching being like throwing a ball....using the whole body.....with out stiffness and tension.... watch closely how he moves-incredible....
As an engineer: can we relate
F=ma to the martial arts by adding to acceleration a relaxation factor to gain more speed. Acceleration (not just speed) is inversely proportional to tension?????
Have a good Holiday!
I had problems with a coupe of students teaching them to "throw" a punch. Although the physical movement is not quite the same---I grabbed a couple of tennis balls. We tossed them back and forth. They I noted that an arm weights 10 + pounds--for some of us much more. If you think of punching, or striking as "throwing" your fist or arm..like a tennis ball--you can use gravity to your advantage....you "throw" your fist through the target, and your body moves with the same sort of twisting motion---you throw with your whole body---relaxed....using gravity, the actual thing you are throwing has weight and mass.
I work the makawara daily, the strikes however are not as powerful or penetrating as striking a pad with the "relaxed-tension" of tossing a ball.
Bill: When Master Gushi does Sanseiryu, many of those rapid and penetrating strikes are done with this sort of relaxed tension. In Master Gushi's last visit to our school we discussed punching being like throwing a ball....using the whole body.....with out stiffness and tension.... watch closely how he moves-incredible....
As an engineer: can we relate
F=ma to the martial arts by adding to acceleration a relaxation factor to gain more speed. Acceleration (not just speed) is inversely proportional to tension?????
Have a good Holiday!
“Dignitus, virtus et reverentia.”
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I'm actually waiting for Rory to pop back in. For those that don't know him (Ron), he's a martial professional with a pretty extensive background.
Now back to Rory's comments... Remember, he's speaking of a DICHOTOMY here. It's the yin yang thing. I know when I start talking yin, you get the yangsters thinking you're eating lotus leaves and reciting poetry. As my sister says, WHAT E V E R!!!! One is not better than the other. In fact the mixing of the two extremes is supposed to characterize the Southern Fuzhou systems (Wing Chun with its hard strikes and sticky hands, Pangainoon, Southern Mantis, White Eyebrow, etc., etc.). It's also supposed to be the nature of Uechi, Goju (translating literally as hard*soft), etc. And the grapplers will tell you that the real technique comes with something other than forcing things. If not, then Joe Pomfret and one of his students wouldn't have had their way with me on the mat at camp (I believe I was stronger than both of them but... No matter; the experience was priceless.).
This is the "yin" part, if you will...
Some folks feel all yin, and never express themselves as yang. To me, this is equally problematic. (Not more, not less...EQUALLY a problem)
When I teach kata, I try very hard to get people to do them with DYNAMIC RANGE. Frankly I think most Uechi practitioners ****** here, and it's a reason Uechi stylists do so poorly in traditional, open tournaments (other than kata length). When I started martial arts, that's the way I learned things. That's the way things were done in Goju when I learned almost all of that system. You can feel the contrast in other systems like Wing Chun. But Uechi stylists I believe spend too much time doing metranome, classroom kata. It kills dynamic range!!! It takes the personal element out of things. This wasn't the way these kata were originally taught.
Talk about repeating themes...
It's like a great piece of classical music, such as Beethoven's fifth. Fast passages, slow passages, LOUD passages, soft passages...
Think Nolan Ryan or any other pitching great would have survived long only throwing heat? No matter how great you are doing any one thing, the other guy's going to figure you out if that's all you got.
But I digress...
Rick and Ron
I think you both are touching on one part (the yin part) of the equation. Sort of... Good stuff!
I tell you though, I like Rory's original direction in this thread. He's expressing something - a contrast - that I've been trying to articulate for a while. Folks like Gushi understand this, right Ron? That old man had a sinewy body that many twenty-somethings would kill to have. But...the man also has that other half.
So, how do we help Rory's students understand the difference? How do we help our own community understand the difference?
- Bill
P.S. Ron, the force thing isn't quite it. If you want to bring up force, what matters in energy transfer is the magnitude of decelleration upon contact, and the degree to which the collision is inelastic.
More later if you want...it gets complex. Hitting is actually a two-phase proposition. You can add more force to the equation after contact, and the way you do it is different than the way you generate the velocity before contact.
Now back to Rory's comments... Remember, he's speaking of a DICHOTOMY here. It's the yin yang thing. I know when I start talking yin, you get the yangsters thinking you're eating lotus leaves and reciting poetry. As my sister says, WHAT E V E R!!!! One is not better than the other. In fact the mixing of the two extremes is supposed to characterize the Southern Fuzhou systems (Wing Chun with its hard strikes and sticky hands, Pangainoon, Southern Mantis, White Eyebrow, etc., etc.). It's also supposed to be the nature of Uechi, Goju (translating literally as hard*soft), etc. And the grapplers will tell you that the real technique comes with something other than forcing things. If not, then Joe Pomfret and one of his students wouldn't have had their way with me on the mat at camp (I believe I was stronger than both of them but... No matter; the experience was priceless.).
This is the "yin" part, if you will...
...and this is the "yang" part...Some techniques rely on gravity and looseness to work. You have to "let" these techniques happen. If there is any noticeable muscle tension the technique is slowed or ineffective.
Examples would be dead-hand strikes, some of the entries, spiral 'sticky' locks (especially spine controls) and dropping into stances for speed or power generation.
Most beginners (particulaly male beginners) have absolutely NO problem with the yang part. They bang their chests, grunt, and congratulate themselves in their high energy efforts. Talk yin to them and they are fish out of water.Other techniques, like linear strikes (though the antagonist muscles should be loose) you have to _make_ happen. If you use the mechanics or mindset of the 'loose' techniques, the strike is completely ineffective.
Some folks feel all yin, and never express themselves as yang. To me, this is equally problematic. (Not more, not less...EQUALLY a problem)
When I teach kata, I try very hard to get people to do them with DYNAMIC RANGE. Frankly I think most Uechi practitioners ****** here, and it's a reason Uechi stylists do so poorly in traditional, open tournaments (other than kata length). When I started martial arts, that's the way I learned things. That's the way things were done in Goju when I learned almost all of that system. You can feel the contrast in other systems like Wing Chun. But Uechi stylists I believe spend too much time doing metranome, classroom kata. It kills dynamic range!!! It takes the personal element out of things. This wasn't the way these kata were originally taught.
Talk about repeating themes...
It's like a great piece of classical music, such as Beethoven's fifth. Fast passages, slow passages, LOUD passages, soft passages...
Think Nolan Ryan or any other pitching great would have survived long only throwing heat? No matter how great you are doing any one thing, the other guy's going to figure you out if that's all you got.
But I digress...
Rick and Ron
I think you both are touching on one part (the yin part) of the equation. Sort of... Good stuff!
I tell you though, I like Rory's original direction in this thread. He's expressing something - a contrast - that I've been trying to articulate for a while. Folks like Gushi understand this, right Ron? That old man had a sinewy body that many twenty-somethings would kill to have. But...the man also has that other half.
Ecclesiastes, 3. 1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
So, how do we help Rory's students understand the difference? How do we help our own community understand the difference?
- Bill
P.S. Ron, the force thing isn't quite it. If you want to bring up force, what matters in energy transfer is the magnitude of decelleration upon contact, and the degree to which the collision is inelastic.
More later if you want...it gets complex. Hitting is actually a two-phase proposition. You can add more force to the equation after contact, and the way you do it is different than the way you generate the velocity before contact.
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Rick Wilson
Yes we have them focus on the yin because they all have the yang.
When they get that then they can rejoin the two.
As for the force equation there are some excellent old posts on it.
Ron: The feeling of power on a soft strike can be deceptive because you can effectively transfer the energy of a strike. I always recommend trying it out on a well conditioned partner and see which they feel is the most effective.
When they get that then they can rejoin the two.
As for the force equation there are some excellent old posts on it.
Ron: The feeling of power on a soft strike can be deceptive because you can effectively transfer the energy of a strike. I always recommend trying it out on a well conditioned partner and see which they feel is the most effective.
This will be more of a ramble than usual. Sorry.
Bill- the dichotomy is the key to what I am trying to express, but it is hard to bring in phrases loaded with connotation like "yin and yang" and achieve any clarity. I'm essentially a very simple creature and I try to keep my world as simple as possible. It works remarkeably well, so far.
Max- I regret I missed your post on hard and soft circles. Once a thread gets to be Uechi-specific I tend to drop out from sheer ignorance. I wish there was a local instructor largely so that I could understand some of the posts on specific moves and kata.
The dichotomy isn't that some muscles need to stay loose in a strike (though they do) or about conditioning for specific action.
The big dichotomy is apparent in those techniques where you tell the student "You're trying to hard." vs "That was slop, you need to focus."
A lot of joint lock take downs and throws don't work if tori has a death grip. A really good Small Circle practitioner has a grip with complete control but very little or no tension... a less skilled practitioner has a tight grip and little control. Trying too hard.
Dead hand strikes are a limp but whippy drop, sort of a vertical shotei... that almost all beginners try to muscle because they can't believe that a well-timed falling weight can have more power than a hard swing...until they both feel it and prove to themselves that falling is faster than stepping.
Focus is as much mental as physical. The pit-pat of someone hitting a bag with no real intent sounds completely different than a focused, serious strike, even if the pit-pat is from a physically stronger person. It obviously feels different too.
For many (not nearly all) of the 'relax' techniques, the student is focused on the point of contact when the technique is entirely controlled by the hips...however almost all techniques are really controlled by the hips...
The focus techniques tend to require a moment of tension and/or bone-to-bone conduction of power at the moment of impact.
Ron- You mentioned that all the students come with Yang and have to learn Yin. It's a generalization and applies very well to the hard and soft WITHIN a technique. Take a minute and think about the techniques where you have to tell all of your students, even yourself "Relax, you're trying too hard." Then think of all the techniques that lead you to say, "That was slop. Focus!"
What defines each of those classes? Is there a simple word picture that I can draw for my students? Is there something so basic that once I explain it, they can see it themselves and start improvising (my ultimate goal).
Rory
Bill- the dichotomy is the key to what I am trying to express, but it is hard to bring in phrases loaded with connotation like "yin and yang" and achieve any clarity. I'm essentially a very simple creature and I try to keep my world as simple as possible. It works remarkeably well, so far.
Max- I regret I missed your post on hard and soft circles. Once a thread gets to be Uechi-specific I tend to drop out from sheer ignorance. I wish there was a local instructor largely so that I could understand some of the posts on specific moves and kata.
The dichotomy isn't that some muscles need to stay loose in a strike (though they do) or about conditioning for specific action.
The big dichotomy is apparent in those techniques where you tell the student "You're trying to hard." vs "That was slop, you need to focus."
A lot of joint lock take downs and throws don't work if tori has a death grip. A really good Small Circle practitioner has a grip with complete control but very little or no tension... a less skilled practitioner has a tight grip and little control. Trying too hard.
Dead hand strikes are a limp but whippy drop, sort of a vertical shotei... that almost all beginners try to muscle because they can't believe that a well-timed falling weight can have more power than a hard swing...until they both feel it and prove to themselves that falling is faster than stepping.
Focus is as much mental as physical. The pit-pat of someone hitting a bag with no real intent sounds completely different than a focused, serious strike, even if the pit-pat is from a physically stronger person. It obviously feels different too.
For many (not nearly all) of the 'relax' techniques, the student is focused on the point of contact when the technique is entirely controlled by the hips...however almost all techniques are really controlled by the hips...
The focus techniques tend to require a moment of tension and/or bone-to-bone conduction of power at the moment of impact.
Ron- You mentioned that all the students come with Yang and have to learn Yin. It's a generalization and applies very well to the hard and soft WITHIN a technique. Take a minute and think about the techniques where you have to tell all of your students, even yourself "Relax, you're trying too hard." Then think of all the techniques that lead you to say, "That was slop. Focus!"
What defines each of those classes? Is there a simple word picture that I can draw for my students? Is there something so basic that once I explain it, they can see it themselves and start improvising (my ultimate goal).
Rory
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Rory
Keep it coming; this is interesting. Now, allow me the same opportunity to "ramble" a bit.
I think you hit on something that makes sense, Rory. It may not be the hard techniques and the soft techniques per se. Rather it may be more the hard and the soft within a technique. In most every martial movement we do, the body (at any one point in time) must have some muscles contracted and some muscles relaxed. It seems simple enough at first. When you thrust, you want the triceps contracting hard while the biceps are completely relaxed. Hard must be hard, soft must be soft, and there must not be any gray area there.
But we must also consider the quadriceps, the glutes, the back, the muscles that pull the shoulder (AC) joint down firmly, etc. when talking about muscles that must contract at any one point in time. The really good stuff comes when your body figures out the timing of the contraction and relaxation of all the various muscles from beginning to execution.
When we first start any activity, our bodies have no idea how to do things with the greatest efficiency. So either we burn ourselves out with wasted effort, or we don't put enough effort in the muscles that SHOULD be working. A great example is rock climbing. One learns quickly that certain muscles must contract to hold you there, and others must relax so you don't become exhausted. The beginner attempts to pull the whole body up to the wall, when really he must have a straight, dead arm with just the grip muscles contracted. The beginner climbs OK at first, but then becomes exhausted pretty quickly. The thing about the wall and going up is that it doesn't lie. You either get your body up the wall or you don't. And if you aren't selective about how you use your energy (irrespective of proper training), you waste and then you run out.
At first when people attempt to perform martial moves with partners, they don't understand that "groove" that one must travel down in terms of movement and technique. It takes time to figure everything out. Meanwhile, the partner isn't always cooperative, and that can add to the tension and frustration.
I really think it's a technique by technique thing, Rory. I don't think there's a magic formula here. Teachers need to be able to see exactly how energy is being wasted, and not being applied. But I think there are things that help.
First, I'm a great believer in getting students to do "open chain" weight exercises in the weight room. Get them off the machines (except for things like hamstrings, lats, etc.) and onto the free-weight stuff. Make them start the workout with multiple muscle group exercises - the more in an exercise the better. The single muscle stuff only comes at the end to balance things out and emphasize what needs extra work. I could go on and on... Good weight training (as opposed to body building) books get you there. Anyhow, weights don't lie; you get it up or you don't. And half of getting it up on the complex exercises (like power cleans, hang cleans, snatches, etc.) is technique. Your body over time finds the groove.
Second, I think the teacher needs to identify building blocks of techniques. The complex ones often have simpler components within. If you understand the movement well enough and your power of observation is good, you can begin to figure out what the student is doing right and what he isn't. Kata training helps here; then you take the fundamental principles of movement from kata and bring it to partner exercises.
Third, I think it helps to have people do things slowly and melodramatically when working with a partner. Have them feel and exaggerate the body motions, as if in super slow motion for the NFL replay. In general it's easier to teach things big and have the students gravitate to small. When you speed things up, the body will naturally shed the wasted over time.
That may have been a ramble too, Rory. Perhaps you can tell me what seems to synch with your thinking.
- Bill
Keep it coming; this is interesting. Now, allow me the same opportunity to "ramble" a bit.
I think you hit on something that makes sense, Rory. It may not be the hard techniques and the soft techniques per se. Rather it may be more the hard and the soft within a technique. In most every martial movement we do, the body (at any one point in time) must have some muscles contracted and some muscles relaxed. It seems simple enough at first. When you thrust, you want the triceps contracting hard while the biceps are completely relaxed. Hard must be hard, soft must be soft, and there must not be any gray area there.
But we must also consider the quadriceps, the glutes, the back, the muscles that pull the shoulder (AC) joint down firmly, etc. when talking about muscles that must contract at any one point in time. The really good stuff comes when your body figures out the timing of the contraction and relaxation of all the various muscles from beginning to execution.
When we first start any activity, our bodies have no idea how to do things with the greatest efficiency. So either we burn ourselves out with wasted effort, or we don't put enough effort in the muscles that SHOULD be working. A great example is rock climbing. One learns quickly that certain muscles must contract to hold you there, and others must relax so you don't become exhausted. The beginner attempts to pull the whole body up to the wall, when really he must have a straight, dead arm with just the grip muscles contracted. The beginner climbs OK at first, but then becomes exhausted pretty quickly. The thing about the wall and going up is that it doesn't lie. You either get your body up the wall or you don't. And if you aren't selective about how you use your energy (irrespective of proper training), you waste and then you run out.
At first when people attempt to perform martial moves with partners, they don't understand that "groove" that one must travel down in terms of movement and technique. It takes time to figure everything out. Meanwhile, the partner isn't always cooperative, and that can add to the tension and frustration.
I really think it's a technique by technique thing, Rory. I don't think there's a magic formula here. Teachers need to be able to see exactly how energy is being wasted, and not being applied. But I think there are things that help.
First, I'm a great believer in getting students to do "open chain" weight exercises in the weight room. Get them off the machines (except for things like hamstrings, lats, etc.) and onto the free-weight stuff. Make them start the workout with multiple muscle group exercises - the more in an exercise the better. The single muscle stuff only comes at the end to balance things out and emphasize what needs extra work. I could go on and on... Good weight training (as opposed to body building) books get you there. Anyhow, weights don't lie; you get it up or you don't. And half of getting it up on the complex exercises (like power cleans, hang cleans, snatches, etc.) is technique. Your body over time finds the groove.
Second, I think the teacher needs to identify building blocks of techniques. The complex ones often have simpler components within. If you understand the movement well enough and your power of observation is good, you can begin to figure out what the student is doing right and what he isn't. Kata training helps here; then you take the fundamental principles of movement from kata and bring it to partner exercises.
Third, I think it helps to have people do things slowly and melodramatically when working with a partner. Have them feel and exaggerate the body motions, as if in super slow motion for the NFL replay. In general it's easier to teach things big and have the students gravitate to small. When you speed things up, the body will naturally shed the wasted over time.
That may have been a ramble too, Rory. Perhaps you can tell me what seems to synch with your thinking.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
BTW, Rory, the use of gravity is another interesting skill. Good stuff. This gets to training the body to use forces that are there by allowing gravity to work on one's own mass or messing with the control of center of the other partner so gravity works to the disadvantage of him/her.
The free-weight room teaches a person generalizeable principle-of-movement skills by fighting gravity. However one must think backwards a bit to use rather than fight gravity.
- Bill
The free-weight room teaches a person generalizeable principle-of-movement skills by fighting gravity. However one must think backwards a bit to use rather than fight gravity.
- Bill
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Stryke
