Modifying Kumite

[Van Canna]

Dana

I've very concerned by teachers (and students for that matter) who insist that competition sparring skills are exactly self-defense skills.

[sic]

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Sometimes I think folks may be a little too comfortable in their regular set routines and forget to step back and evaluate the goals of their lessons.

**

If your students want to have good sparring skills - teach those
If they want good self-defense skills - teach those
If they want both - teach both

Please just be clear about what you're teaching and training. there is more of a disconnect between what goes on in the typical local sparring tournament ring and what a moderate to severe self-defense situation is going to look like.

Well-said Dana. This is the problem, or the lack of understanding of the argument about the kumites, where people insist they are self-defense reality. To be sure, there are concepts in them that can be useful; but can also set up a student for dismal failure.

So as you say, it is all about educating us and the students about such things without getting our panties/shorts in Gordian knots.

Very simple logic you espouse…good for you. How is the fiery smiling “Uechi Woman” these days… ?

Heather

[Bill Glasheen]

Hi, Dana.

Lately it seems all the forums have been referendums on various yakusoku kumite. Fine... But I'm not going to go there now, because I don't believe I need to in order to address your concern. I believe I understand your issue, and I have a record of working with women to resolve it. Some have already addressed the topic to some extent. I'll add my 2 cents.

You wrote...

So I've got an issue of late with the idea that {...} I'm supposed to block a grown man's front kick with my arm.

Well yes and no.

Honestly - it ain't gonna work for me unless a raging 5' 3" woman of under 125 pounds attacks. Most of the karateka I train with are 175lbs or more and closer to six feet than five. It's a question of physics.

Dana, I just got finished working with Master Gushi. He's barely a whisp of a man, but he was working with my kicks no problem. Interesting... And no, he didn't violate the laws of physics.

Uechi, as a system, (to me) clearly shows that one of the most favorite ways of dealing with a kick is to raise your own leg to block it.

This is a great defense, Dana. Decades back, I had to fight a Hapkido black belt in my dojo with tree-trunk legs. One day this dude actually blew the bottom out of the heavy bag with his side thrust kick. He made several folks in the dojo pee blood with his yoko geri kidney shots.

When I sparred Lloyd, my favorite thing to do was to charge in with crane knee high. Once I made contact with the lower leg, I was "all over him like a cheap suit." That worked great...for a long time. Then he started learning Uechi. Then I had to change my strategy; I needed more choices.

Now the hands must be alive in case the kick is higher than the mid-section and all that

Indeed. Lloyd took quite a few heads off, so to write. Lloyd (and others) could kick you in the back of your neck with a hook kick when the two of you were in elbow strike range. Gotta have those hands ready, and the body properly checked...

but really. To me Uechi never suggests touching a leg with an arm unless you're dropped down in a horse stance and that's risky business or if the kick is coming above the waist.

Oh really? What about "hawk chases sparrow" in seichin, Dana? There you have a move done in a shallow stance that can be a crane leg block/jam, a sukuiage uke (scooping lifting catch - I hate the word block) and harai sukui uke (downward scooping catch). Yes you can do many, many other things with the movement... But here are three techniques that make perfect tools to manage kicks.

So why so much emphasis on stopping round and front kicks with arms?

Dana, the problem is that you've been learning Uechi from too many big guys. The way you do the style isn't the way a strong man should do the style. I constantly have to poke fun at my female students for standing in there and taking these killer shots with their arms. I tell them something like "I know you have all that upper body strength to rely on but..." It gets a smile out of them, and makes them listen.

I use the space shuttle as an analogy. It's a complex system, and many, many things can go wrong. You'd never get that thing to space and back without triple redundancy in almost all systems.

The same goes for "arm blocks" (I still HATE that "b" word...) in Uechi Ryu. I often start students off by showing them they can avoid being hit by many techniques just by moving off the line of force (or rotating off of it) at precisely the right moment. Note I did NOT say move back in the direction of the line of force!!!! This is what the torreadore does to the bull. It's a thing of beauty when it is done well. For a gedan barai, this means a zig or a zag. For a roundhouse or hook kick, you will find that the lethal zone is in a small arc where the technique is focused. Move with the path of the lateral kick, and you both move out of the power arc and produce a Doppler effect that nullifies the power of the kick. Or you can move in and jam the thing.

Once you have confidence with the movement, then the forearms can do much more interesting things. They serve as feelers as you work your way in to where you want to be. When/if you are good, they can serve to catch the kick and dump the attacker or attack the attacker in the foundation at the point of contact. Difficult to talk about...easy to show.

Rick I believe also talked about using arms as a kind of shock absorber. For cross blocks, think of the arms as a suspension system on a car. The spring has give, but the shock absorber doesn't allow your suspension to collapse. Actually another analogy is like the crumple zone on a car's front. You absorb the energy with some give in the arms and perhaps the body.

When it comes to straight kicking techniques, the redirection principles learned in kotekitae apply. You do not strongarm a powerful straight kick; you redirect it with good technique.

I also think folks learn a really bad habit of kicking and leaving their leg out there so their partner can "block" it. Now everyone is learning bad habits - the kicker leaves their leg out and the "blocker" thinks they've got the timing down. (Not talking about white belts doing this - I'm talking about watching black belts doing Dan Kumite doing this)

I see all kinds of bad habits in partner work, Dana. Over time I've gotten to be able to "read" peoples' techniques. Sometimes I'll not even block, and the result can be pretty comical. The partner immediately gets the point. Then when it's time for me to attack, I go straight for the target and ignore the block (with control). It's amazing how often I get dead on the target.

These are the kinds of things that good teachers do for their students, and good students do for each other. We must respect each other and care for each others' welfare. We must practice safely. BUT...we must be honest with each other after we bow.

Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield

- Samurai quote

So here's what I see is the bottom line:

1) Uechi Ryu gives you many choices. You will need those many choices; not all techniques will work against any one individual, or in any one situation.

2) It behooves you to master each and every one of those options so you can be true to the style and true to your needs.

3) In the parlance of Dragon Society International, you need to learn the "players to the game" to make these things work. As the instructions say, "some assembly required." But you know what, Dana? For every student I have built like you that is able to figure it out and make it work, I have made myself an instructor that'll be a better teacher than any champion athlete you can march in front of me. Great athletes can rely on good genes. Pocket rockets learn the karate, and have all the wonderful "magic."

And God help us when you get a great athlete with great technique...

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Oh really? What about "hawk chases sparrow" in seichin, Dana? There you have a move done in a shallow stance that can be a crane leg block/jam, a sukuiage uke (scooping lifting catch - I hate the word block) and harai sukui uke (downward scooping catch). Yes you can do many, many other things with the movement... But here are three techniques that make perfect tools to manage kicks.

Personally the only time those movements work against kicks are against bad kicks. The Uehara brothers are shown using the movement against a kick in a photo - but the kick is done by somebody far back and at full extension. The "catcher" using the technique is in a much lower cat stance that most Uechi players use. Again - for a powerful in-close kick the only part that makes sense to me is the crane block. It's usually a pretty bad idea for me to catch a grown man's leg unless I can quickly dump him on the ground. Otherwise I've just tied up a leg and a hand or two on one attack.

The above is a good point, but this was not the point of the thread. The point of the thread was why does Uechi pre-arranged kumite teach banging blocks against legs.

And I'm not the only woman learning Uechi from strong men. One of the other main reason for this thread.

And Bill - I honestly have to ask - were you trying to take Gush-sensei down with your kicks? Or were you throwing good Uke kicks? I mean no disrespect whatsoever to Master Gushi. From what I've heard the man is an amazing and exceptional martial artist. And that's partly my point. Amazing and exceptional people make the block work - what's the percentage play for a mere mortal? And a small mere mortal woman at that?

[Bill Glasheen]

The above is a good point, but this was not the point of the thread. The point of the thread was why does Uechi pre-arranged kumite teach banging blocks against legs.

Again, I can't say that I share your perspective. There are some that teach banging blocks against legs. I taught my 315 pound judoka to bang blocks against legs. But when I faced that marvelous athlete, I didn't dare do so. The mechanics were very, very different, even though on the surface the technique appeared to be the same.

There are many choices in many ranges in this style, Dana. By all means, savor the techniques you like and work for you.

Don't, however, judge various interpretations by how one individual does them. Some do them better than others. My first Uechi instructor had me on the floor every time I tried to kick him, and he wasn't jamming my kicks.

for a powerful in-close kick the only part that makes sense to me is the crane block.

I couldn't agree more.

However I grew up in "Nobody bothers me" taequondo land. These folks did not do in-close kicks. Tai boxers do dangerous, powerful, in-close kicks. But not the TKD folks, and there are more of them out there than any other stylist.

Get inside if you can, Dana. However you can't always do that. Furthermore, a multiple partner scenario may present different challenges and opportunities. If you can grab a leg, you've got yourself both a victim and a shield. Etc., etc.

were you trying to take Gush-sensei down with your kicks? Or were you throwing good Uke kicks?

If you are asking whether I came in trying to hurt the man, the answer is no. I can come in and tag someone without the final "oomph." Years of practice with partners gives you that ability. I don't (usually) hurt my training partners; it's bad policy.

But I do not give people false attacks at incorrect distances, if that is what you are asking. We had a discussion about techniques in sanseiryu, and Gushi sensei happened to be using me to make a point. I felt the little guy had something there...

Amazing and exceptional people make the block work

Exactly what do you mean by this, Dana? If you mean big and strong people, well Gushi Sensei doesn't fit the mold. He's rail thin, and a fraction of my height.

If you mean people that learn technique and do amazing things with the body they were given, well...sounds like Dana Sheets to me!

what's the percentage play for a mere mortal? And a small mere mortal woman at that?

No excuses, Dana. You're not big, but you're an amazing athlete. That comes from a great mind, a fertile imagination, and a willingness to put yourself out there and try things.

We cannot change our DNA. But we CAN work harder. We CAN work smarter. We can ask, and learn, and try, and compare notes...

Not immortal, Dana, but damned close!

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Bill, I thank you for your ethusiasm, your support, and your compliments. I swear that if you keep writing that way folks are going to expect me to walk into the dojo and fly through the air with a little Uechi cape on my back. So to everyone out there - Bill is being very nice - I remain, however, very mortal and very flawed in my practice and understanding of martial arts and life.

And Bill you get to the heart of the matter - folks should train everything and figure out what works well for their own bodies. Heck yeah a big guy should bang right through the silly little legs of tiny humans. That's what makes sense. What I'm trying to do is make sense of some of those kumite moves for me.

And if I had to pick one soapbox, that's where I'd stand. Women need to look good and hard at Uechi and find the principles that they can use effectively given their size, skill and abilities. Unfortunately many women fall into the trap of imitating their instrcutor (often a guy much larger and stronger than they are) and trying to do karate the way he does. This is when Uechi doesn't work and I think it's a big reason that you don't see more women in many Uechi schools. Women walk in the door with zero conditioning and are taught to downblock a leg as a "beginner" technique. To me, using the arm to downblock the leg is actually a pretty advanced technique and has a lower percentage for success.

Which brings me back to the start of the thread. I would suggest that for many women it would be a good idea to start with just getting off the line from the kick and putting an arm down there at all. Then move to the arm block after they've had a chance to learn more about timing, technique, getting off the line, and taking a hit if you don't. Women just generally don't like to have big ugly bruises on their arms and I've noticed that most white/green belt women get those nasty arm bruises when they're trying to swing their arms down in front of kicks. At the same time if the woman isn't getting off the line then I think a better "beginner" defense is the crane block.

So yes - a mere mortal can probably learn to use movement and timing in combination with the downblock against a kick - but there needs to be more emphasis placed on the movement and the timing and less on the banging for smaller folks. And sometimes I don't think that emphasis is shifted enought for women.

[gmattson]

performed after the crane block and knee movement. Although taught as a groin strike, I see this as a very useful kick deflection. . . when combined with a slight shift of weight away from the kick. Instead of trying to stop the kick, you simply allow it to go where it wants to go. The downward arm movement insures that it doesn't hit you.

As people age, they also start seeing other applications in Uechi that weren't needed 30 years ago!

[f.Channell]

I for one am a believer in getting out of the way of a kick. Sometimes the Kumite has us believing standing our ground and blocking is the best defense. I think a side step combined with a block is better.
In the particular move in Dan you are discussing, you might try Bob Campbells timing hand block, as far as I'm concerned it is the only chance if you are going to stand still and try to block it.
I know a couple of small Uechi guys like myself that "cheat" with that timing hand block, works good.
F.

[lookingglass]

Lots of tangents here Dana, but imagine these men here going up against men that can kick and not lose power at the head level. Even men move off the line and try to redrect the kick.

People have recieved broken arms with the wrong block or thinking that absorption was the key.

I have seen TKD kicker that would love to face someone who thinks TKD is a sport and has no real street value.

Those comments crack me up because when you look at the post here about Uechi and the system format it to can be proven to have no real street value.

Train for the conditioning, train to stick and move. Work it all seriously.

What about the guys out there that fight all the time and dont go to any dojo. No teacher, self taught ass kickers. They work on hitting and not hitting and kicking and not kicking and that is about it.

[lookingglass]

as I reached for the mouse, kinda funny but I apoligize to you. I am not an instructor.

[Rick Wilson]

“I have seen TKD kicker that would love to face someone who thinks TKD is a sport and has no real street value.”

Had a friend who was overseas and used to get to watch the Korean Tiger Troops train their TKD. He would agree with you 100%!

Any Martial Art in the wrong hands can be bastardized into something it was never meant to be. This gives a false impression of the original art.

The Olympic version of TKD sparring has given people the wrong impression of what TKD truly is.

I left TKD when they went solely to that training.

Good comment.

[lookingglass]

Thank you Rick,

I wondered what type of responce I would get after that post:

I in no way believe Uechi to be foolish or with out purpose. I enjoy the style but most of the post have been silly little arguement from people questioning every block and strike and kick for street application. Instead of understanding that Uechi is a system and everything has its place.

A block that I am faster, stronger, more conditions and more skilled at works for me. That is the beauty I Martial Art. {ARts} There is room for self-expression.

Thank you
Ken

[Rick Wilson]

Hi Dana:

Very self serving plug here, but George has the video ready:

http://karateworld.safeshopper.com/48/210.htm?656

I can be reached by email or PM if there are questions about the training.



Rick