What is Zen/Zin I was told about it at a party but cant remember what I was told it was. Please Help
Love Maygan
Zen/Zin
Moderator: Available
Zen/Zin
Hmmmmm. Whooooboy. That's a question folks have been trying to answer ever since Bodhidarma (allegedly) brought his flavor of Buddhism out of India and into China.
No one else is silly enough to stick their toe in this very deep water so I'll give it a try... When the truly knowledgeable get back from vacation, they'll no doubt set us straight.
Standard disclaimer: I know nothing and am in no way an expert in this subject.
What is Zen?
One Zen Monk, I think it was Soho Takuan in one of his letters to the Yagyu Munenori, stated that, when asked the meaning of Zen, one should hold up a clenched fist. Not very helpful, eh? (but very Zen!)
So here's what, after several years of study, several thousand pages of reading, several hundred hours of contemplation, and several dozen conversations with Zen practitioners who would probably be amused at my statements, I've discovered about Zen:
Zen is a philosophy. It can be studied and practiced without regard to religion or martial arts, although, IMHO, the practice of either or both go well with the Zen philosophy.
Attempting to boil down about 2,000 years of very Zen-like debate on Zen, I have come up with these few points:
According to Zen-
1. Life is misery.
2. The source of all misery is our wants and desires.
3. Concentrate on what IS. Only what IS is real.
4. Preconceptions disable our ability to see the world as it really is.
So? What about these things?
Here are a few thoughts to start you on your way.
#1. Life is misery. I've always had a problem with this. I think life is a stinking blast! Recently though, I've heard a new slant. In discussions with a learned friend, I discovered that "Life is misery" is an often incorrectly translated translation. A better translation is "Life Contains Misery." I like that better.
#2. The source of all misery is our Wants and Desires (W&D). So,if our W&D cause us misery,we should get rid of our W&D. Mad because it's raining and your outdoor water color painting session with Aunt Matilda is spoiled? So what are you mad at? The rain? The sky? The Creator? Better to focus on what IS, not what we WANT.
#3 Concentrate on what IS. Only what IS is real. Life is not about what you want, what you need, or...well...you. Life is about things that exist. Concentrate on those. The sun IS shining. You are here NOW. What can you do with those things? (poor explanation, but you get what you pay for)
#4 Preconceptions disable our ability to see the world as it really is. This one is really important!!! I say again, this one is really important. Worried that, when you get to work, your boss will yell at you? Worried that Sensei will dislike your Kata? Why? How do you KNOW? Better to just GO, see what really IS, and deal with it.
These are very poor explanations. However, I hope this helps in some way.
respectfully,
T
No one else is silly enough to stick their toe in this very deep water so I'll give it a try... When the truly knowledgeable get back from vacation, they'll no doubt set us straight.
Standard disclaimer: I know nothing and am in no way an expert in this subject.
What is Zen?
One Zen Monk, I think it was Soho Takuan in one of his letters to the Yagyu Munenori, stated that, when asked the meaning of Zen, one should hold up a clenched fist. Not very helpful, eh? (but very Zen!)
So here's what, after several years of study, several thousand pages of reading, several hundred hours of contemplation, and several dozen conversations with Zen practitioners who would probably be amused at my statements, I've discovered about Zen:
Zen is a philosophy. It can be studied and practiced without regard to religion or martial arts, although, IMHO, the practice of either or both go well with the Zen philosophy.
Attempting to boil down about 2,000 years of very Zen-like debate on Zen, I have come up with these few points:
According to Zen-
1. Life is misery.
2. The source of all misery is our wants and desires.
3. Concentrate on what IS. Only what IS is real.
4. Preconceptions disable our ability to see the world as it really is.
So? What about these things?
Here are a few thoughts to start you on your way.
#1. Life is misery. I've always had a problem with this. I think life is a stinking blast! Recently though, I've heard a new slant. In discussions with a learned friend, I discovered that "Life is misery" is an often incorrectly translated translation. A better translation is "Life Contains Misery." I like that better.
#2. The source of all misery is our Wants and Desires (W&D). So,if our W&D cause us misery,we should get rid of our W&D. Mad because it's raining and your outdoor water color painting session with Aunt Matilda is spoiled? So what are you mad at? The rain? The sky? The Creator? Better to focus on what IS, not what we WANT.
#3 Concentrate on what IS. Only what IS is real. Life is not about what you want, what you need, or...well...you. Life is about things that exist. Concentrate on those. The sun IS shining. You are here NOW. What can you do with those things? (poor explanation, but you get what you pay for)
#4 Preconceptions disable our ability to see the world as it really is. This one is really important!!! I say again, this one is really important. Worried that, when you get to work, your boss will yell at you? Worried that Sensei will dislike your Kata? Why? How do you KNOW? Better to just GO, see what really IS, and deal with it.
These are very poor explanations. However, I hope this helps in some way.
respectfully,
T
Zen/Zin
Pretty Good, T. 
I differ with your #1. It should probably be simply stated as "Life is." Misery comes from "grasping" and "aversion" based on some of preconceptions. If one can accept things as is, then one can diminish if not eliminate the misery, or "suffering".
Going back to Maygan's request, I am not sure if it is the definition of "zen" that is being asked for. Perhaps it is. I was also thinking maybe the definition sought may be for "zanshin" (zen/zin), tanslated as "continuing awareness" in a martial context. This would seem like a good assumption for a martial arts forum (though "zen" would fit in too for some martial artists with certain philosophical inclination.)
david
I differ with your #1. It should probably be simply stated as "Life is." Misery comes from "grasping" and "aversion" based on some of preconceptions. If one can accept things as is, then one can diminish if not eliminate the misery, or "suffering".
Going back to Maygan's request, I am not sure if it is the definition of "zen" that is being asked for. Perhaps it is. I was also thinking maybe the definition sought may be for "zanshin" (zen/zin), tanslated as "continuing awareness" in a martial context. This would seem like a good assumption for a martial arts forum (though "zen" would fit in too for some martial artists with certain philosophical inclination.)
david
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Zen/Zin
It must be Christmas; david is here! 
Good points, david, and I'd love to hear from Maygan (or Love Magan ) as to what she really wanted. But then sometimes people just lob unformulated thoughts out there and see if they evolve into an interesting discussion. As moderator of this forum, I endorse that practice wholeheartedly. No need to explain oneself excessively if there is no desire to do so.
Still, the concept of zanshin would make a great thread...
I thought you took a pretty decent stab at the subject of Zen, Tozeku. And the longer I live, the more I come to appreciate all of what was put forth. When you think about it, you realize that common religions and martial arts practices share many of these precepts.
Whether it's the failing economy, failing personal relationships, or the aftermath of September 11th, it's not hard to see both functional and dysfunctional ways of dealing with it all. Let's consider Tozeku's first precept <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
To my peers suffering economically from the economy, I find time (while I am the benefactor of good fortune) to remind them of the things around them that matter much more. We Westerners are conspicuous consumers, and often get lost in all these wants that our peers convince us are important. Concepts like family, self-determination, personal fulfillment, and other entities and virtues get lost in the materialistic shuffle.
As to relationships and the pain they cause, well...I wax and wane on that one. I find virtue in both passion and dispassion. I find valuable meaning in pain. Take those lessons and apply them to many other ventures in life, and you get pretty far. Sometimes pain is very necessary and quite the virtue. Sometimes it should even be sought out. Sometimes suffering is an important part of the process of development and discovery.
And boy could I go on and on about the value of Tozeku's premise below <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Such is life. But I wax philosophical today...
- Bill
Good points, david, and I'd love to hear from Maygan (or Love Magan
) as to what she really wanted. But then sometimes people just lob unformulated thoughts out there and see if they evolve into an interesting discussion. As moderator of this forum, I endorse that practice wholeheartedly. No need to explain oneself excessively if there is no desire to do so.Still, the concept of zanshin would make a great thread...
I thought you took a pretty decent stab at the subject of Zen, Tozeku. And the longer I live, the more I come to appreciate all of what was put forth. When you think about it, you realize that common religions and martial arts practices share many of these precepts.
Whether it's the failing economy, failing personal relationships, or the aftermath of September 11th, it's not hard to see both functional and dysfunctional ways of dealing with it all. Let's consider Tozeku's first precept <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
, his spin on it <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote1. Life is misery.
and david's version of it <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteLife Contains Misery
People often gravitate to religions, personal philosophies, and Zen studies when times are rough. My version of "Life is" when things get rough is the good-old-fashioned "S*** happens." How things that are perceived to be negative affect us are largely due to our personal wants, desires, and notions of the way things should be. Dealing with life and - yes - misfortune in a dispassionate, pragmatic fashion can be very helpful when our passion sensors are on overload. Funny...this year's Time Magazine man of the year had something interesting to say on a recent Sunday morning program (Meet the Press I believe...). In responding to comments about how well he performed during and after the 9/11 crisis, Rudy said he drew from his father's advice. When others around you panic or become emotional, that's the time to be calm (and occasionally vice versa). This is easier to apply than you might think. Let's just say I found it to be a serendipitous saving grace during several life crisis events.Life is
To my peers suffering economically from the economy, I find time (while I am the benefactor of good fortune) to remind them of the things around them that matter much more. We Westerners are conspicuous consumers, and often get lost in all these wants that our peers convince us are important. Concepts like family, self-determination, personal fulfillment, and other entities and virtues get lost in the materialistic shuffle.
As to relationships and the pain they cause, well...I wax and wane on that one. I find virtue in both passion and dispassion. I find valuable meaning in pain. Take those lessons and apply them to many other ventures in life, and you get pretty far. Sometimes pain is very necessary and quite the virtue. Sometimes it should even be sought out. Sometimes suffering is an important part of the process of development and discovery.
And boy could I go on and on about the value of Tozeku's premise below <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Realizing that saved my butt on my dissertation. I was trying to reproduce the results of a Harvard researcher that had been published in Science. My goal was to take his research and suggestions the next step. Turns out that a key statement made by the author in his publication was absolutely, positively wrong. Not only was the exact opposite true, but the fact that the world was that way turned out to be MUCH more interesting. This famous researcher wanted the world to behave nicely so his grand scheme would all fit together. But the real world - something in a different universe from this author's paradigm - created many more possibilities. Ever since then, I have learned to trust my data - regardless of my preconceived beliefs. Paradigms and pattern recognition skills get you started, but in the end... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote4. Preconceptions disable our ability to see the world as it really is.
I have learned that bold, unsubstantiated statements can come around to bite you in the arse one day... And the day that happens, nobody believes you any more. The day you boldly go forth with practices that aren't evidence based is the day you put yourself at great risk.In God we trust. From anyone else, we need data.
Such is life. But I wax philosophical today...
- Bill
Zen/Zin
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This famous researcher wanted the world to behave nicely so his grand scheme would all fit together. But the real world - something in a different universe from this author's paradigm - created many more possibilities. Ever since then, I have learned to trust my data - regardless of my preconceived beliefs. Paradigms and pattern recognition skills get you started, but in the end...
Such is life. But I wax philosophical today...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm... after reading some of the threads currently in the forums, I would say there is a bit waxing. Perhaps, a "zen" discussion is not so far off.
"Form" and "perfection", "old" vs "new"... How we practice and the way we view a practice seem to be infused with our philosophical bent. Is there a "platonic (perfect) ideal" that we should strive for. Can we know it and judge ourselves or others as being close to it? Or is just doing the best we can at any given moment perfection unto itself?
Why is "form" important? A form can be perfect if things proceed along a preconceived line. Perfectly awful if things proceed along different lines and conditions. Are forms an "end" unto itself, or a structure to learn and then break out of with much more importance place on the process?
On and on we go. Fun and interesting discussions. But never lose sight of the Nike (existential) perspective -- Just Do It!
david
PS. Don't take anything I wrote above seriously. I am just spitting out stuff for the heck of it and slowly breaking out of the shell I've been in.
Such is life. But I wax philosophical today...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm... after reading some of the threads currently in the forums, I would say there is a bit waxing.
Perhaps, a "zen" discussion is not so far off."Form" and "perfection", "old" vs "new"... How we practice and the way we view a practice seem to be infused with our philosophical bent. Is there a "platonic (perfect) ideal" that we should strive for. Can we know it and judge ourselves or others as being close to it? Or is just doing the best we can at any given moment perfection unto itself?
Why is "form" important? A form can be perfect if things proceed along a preconceived line. Perfectly awful if things proceed along different lines and conditions. Are forms an "end" unto itself, or a structure to learn and then break out of with much more importance place on the process?
On and on we go. Fun and interesting discussions. But never lose sight of the Nike (existential) perspective -- Just Do It!
david
PS. Don't take anything I wrote above seriously. I am just spitting out stuff for the heck of it and slowly breaking out of the shell I've been in.
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
Zen/Zin
Hi,maygan .
Early days in my training ,some one mentioned zen to me , just like you , you have taken a first step .
These four statements point to zen
"A special transmission outside the scriptures: No dependance upon words and letters: Direct pointing to the soul of man:Seeing into one's nature and the attainment of buddahood.
max.
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max ainley
Early days in my training ,some one mentioned zen to me , just like you , you have taken a first step .
These four statements point to zen
"A special transmission outside the scriptures: No dependance upon words and letters: Direct pointing to the soul of man:Seeing into one's nature and the attainment of buddahood.
max.
------------------
max ainley
Zen/Zin
hi all..
ok resident Zen teacher is here ( usually lurking in the shadows but could not resist this time)
.. Tokezo.. the original shakumuni buddha actually used the term ( life is suffering ) but misery is not a bad translation either. this was from buddhism not zen. life is suffering was the buddhas realisation, keep in mind this was 500 bc and people were always sick and starving. (think third world country here).
Zen is cha'an buddhism from china. however it has modified itself to fit the japanese and their culture. As the common people and samurai embraced this new way it became less a way to salvation from suffering to a way of knowing "the truth of reality". this is the primary difference between buddhism and Zen.
its funny how things on this forum link to other topics and go round and round.
speaking of "form" or kata.....
in zen there is kata,... kata, kata, kata, everything is kata (a prescribed way of doing). there is a way to eat, a way to walk, a way to take a leak. there are many reasons for all this kata and none have to do with a tactical bunkai for peeing. lol...
i will let yall ponder that one.
quote;_____________________________________
Why is "form" important? A form can be perfect if things proceed along a preconceived line. Perfectly awful if things proceed along different lines and conditions. Are forms an "end" unto itself, or a structure to learn and then break out of with much more importance place on the process?
_____________________________________________
karate is a language of movement..you need to understand your language. if you do all is well. if you dont all is lost. problem is many teachers dont know their own language and mearly regurgitate info to students.
just my ramblings
Hoshin
~~~~~~~
ok resident Zen teacher is here ( usually lurking in the shadows but could not resist this time)
.. Tokezo.. the original shakumuni buddha actually used the term ( life is suffering ) but misery is not a bad translation either. this was from buddhism not zen. life is suffering was the buddhas realisation, keep in mind this was 500 bc and people were always sick and starving. (think third world country here).
Zen is cha'an buddhism from china. however it has modified itself to fit the japanese and their culture. As the common people and samurai embraced this new way it became less a way to salvation from suffering to a way of knowing "the truth of reality". this is the primary difference between buddhism and Zen.
its funny how things on this forum link to other topics and go round and round.
speaking of "form" or kata.....
in zen there is kata,... kata, kata, kata, everything is kata (a prescribed way of doing). there is a way to eat, a way to walk, a way to take a leak. there are many reasons for all this kata and none have to do with a tactical bunkai for peeing. lol...
i will let yall ponder that one.
quote;_____________________________________
Why is "form" important? A form can be perfect if things proceed along a preconceived line. Perfectly awful if things proceed along different lines and conditions. Are forms an "end" unto itself, or a structure to learn and then break out of with much more importance place on the process?
_____________________________________________
karate is a language of movement..you need to understand your language. if you do all is well. if you dont all is lost. problem is many teachers dont know their own language and mearly regurgitate info to students.
just my ramblings
Hoshin
~~~~~~~
Zen/Zin
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>speaking of "form" or kata.....
in zen there is kata,... kata, kata, kata, everything is kata (a prescribed way of doing). there is a way to eat, a way to walk, a way to take a leak. there are many reasons for all this kata and none have to do with a tactical bunkai for peeing. lol...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hoshin,
Ahh, always wondered about that one. My initial and still continuing thought on that (preconception... YES. Guilty!) is that the Japanese tend to formalize/ritualize many things that come their way. It's manner of adopting and making it their own. Another reason? I would love to hear it.
david
in zen there is kata,... kata, kata, kata, everything is kata (a prescribed way of doing). there is a way to eat, a way to walk, a way to take a leak. there are many reasons for all this kata and none have to do with a tactical bunkai for peeing. lol...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hoshin,
Ahh, always wondered about that one.
My initial and still continuing thought on that (preconception... YES. Guilty!) is that the Japanese tend to formalize/ritualize many things that come their way. It's manner of adopting and making it their own. Another reason? I would love to hear it.david
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Malcolm Wagner
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Maurepas, La., USA
Zen/Zin
A poem which I think explains Zen rather nicely. (If words can explain it at all)
"There is a way of being that cannot be known until we release to wind and waves on the sea of unknowing."
"With mind poised just so...empty and full of sky...a way becomes clear."
Author unknown (to me) From: "Zen and The Art of Sailing"
"There is a way of being that cannot be known until we release to wind and waves on the sea of unknowing."
"With mind poised just so...empty and full of sky...a way becomes clear."
Author unknown (to me) From: "Zen and The Art of Sailing"
Zen/Zin
I see the concept of zen as a way of trying to release our preconceived notions of what the world is supposed to be and seeing the world as it truly is. I think it is a long process of letting go of ideologies and (for lack of a better analogy) reformatting our hard disk to a new operating system.
We get programmed by all we see and are told in society about what the rules are and how we have to live and why the rules are that way. So for me, zen is the understanding that we are choosing to live within constructs and that we often apply our constructs to other things & situations where they really don't belong.
from someone...
"Preconceptions keep us being being able to see the world as it truly is."
Dana
We get programmed by all we see and are told in society about what the rules are and how we have to live and why the rules are that way. So for me, zen is the understanding that we are choosing to live within constructs and that we often apply our constructs to other things & situations where they really don't belong.
from someone...
"Preconceptions keep us being being able to see the world as it truly is."
Dana
Zen/Zin
ahh. i love good discustons that make us all think.
Zen-shodo-kata...
in zen we study shodo(calligraphy). some japanese belive that by trying to copy a worthy persons work, as you get better at recreating his calligraphy you will take on some of that persons characteristics. this makes sence to some degree because in order to recreate a calligraphy you would have to move, think, act, and have the same emotion as the original creator. any little bit of your own characteristics would flaw the recreation.
zen-karate-kata..
to begin with stop thinking of kata as bunkai. bunkai practice is bunkai. kata is kata. in okinawa there is a name for that perfect unatainable kata (shimejurusan kata). from the fact that they have a name for it it would imply that kata "pure kata" exsists outside of ourselves. it is up to the prefomer to give it life. you are trying to recreate something that is "truly" perfect. the more ego, self characteristics, the more YOU that you allow into the kata the more tainted the original and thus your recreation is flawed.
i am not saying change is bad, just pointing to some of the history and development of kata...
there are lots of other reasons for kata and the cultural effects on kata but but dont wanna over load anyones brain ..lol..
just my ramblings.
Hoshin
~~~~~~
Zen-shodo-kata...
in zen we study shodo(calligraphy). some japanese belive that by trying to copy a worthy persons work, as you get better at recreating his calligraphy you will take on some of that persons characteristics. this makes sence to some degree because in order to recreate a calligraphy you would have to move, think, act, and have the same emotion as the original creator. any little bit of your own characteristics would flaw the recreation.
zen-karate-kata..
to begin with stop thinking of kata as bunkai. bunkai practice is bunkai. kata is kata. in okinawa there is a name for that perfect unatainable kata (shimejurusan kata). from the fact that they have a name for it it would imply that kata "pure kata" exsists outside of ourselves. it is up to the prefomer to give it life. you are trying to recreate something that is "truly" perfect. the more ego, self characteristics, the more YOU that you allow into the kata the more tainted the original and thus your recreation is flawed.
i am not saying change is bad, just pointing to some of the history and development of kata...
there are lots of other reasons for kata and the cultural effects on kata but but dont wanna over load anyones brain ..lol..
just my ramblings.
Hoshin
~~~~~~
Zen/Zin
Hoshin,
Thanks for elaborating.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Zen-shodo-kata...
in zen we study shodo(calligraphy). some japanese belive that by trying to copy a worthy persons work, as you get better at recreating his calligraphy you will take on some of that persons characteristics. this makes sence to some degree because in order to recreate a calligraphy you would have to move, think, act, and have the same emotion as the original creator. any little bit of your own characteristics would flaw the recreation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. This perspective I have heard. From a buddhist (not necessarily Zen) perspective, I find this sort of contradictory. Change is constant. A goal of sorts is to understand and accept that and then to let go of grasping of what was and aversion to what is.
The Japanese have many examples and tendency to see the "old" as reflection of "perfection" and strive to emulate and recreate. You may recreate the form (if such is truly possible) but how do you recreate the conditions/context in which that form was truly a "perfect" response or expression? I would suggest that most are simply projecting their own inclination/perspective/action even as they believe themselves recreating the "perfection" of the old.
Again, seriously drawing on existentialism, I have always liked the notion of "authentic" vs "inauthentic" action. I think it overlaps well with some of the buddhist perspective about ever changing conditions. Authentic action springs from the conditions of the here and now. Inauthentic action springs from thoughts of what we think or want conditions to be as opposed to what really are.
So much ritual and kata with notion of somehow breaking out of it with the "zen slap" to the sudden awakening and understanding of what is. Hmmm... I am sure it works. But I doubt it's the only method that would.
Okay, enough rambling this morning.
david
Thanks for elaborating.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Zen-shodo-kata...
in zen we study shodo(calligraphy). some japanese belive that by trying to copy a worthy persons work, as you get better at recreating his calligraphy you will take on some of that persons characteristics. this makes sence to some degree because in order to recreate a calligraphy you would have to move, think, act, and have the same emotion as the original creator. any little bit of your own characteristics would flaw the recreation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. This perspective I have heard. From a buddhist (not necessarily Zen) perspective, I find this sort of contradictory. Change is constant. A goal of sorts is to understand and accept that and then to let go of grasping of what was and aversion to what is.
The Japanese have many examples and tendency to see the "old" as reflection of "perfection" and strive to emulate and recreate. You may recreate the form (if such is truly possible) but how do you recreate the conditions/context in which that form was truly a "perfect" response or expression? I would suggest that most are simply projecting their own inclination/perspective/action even as they believe themselves recreating the "perfection" of the old.
Again, seriously drawing on existentialism, I have always liked the notion of "authentic" vs "inauthentic" action. I think it overlaps well with some of the buddhist perspective about ever changing conditions. Authentic action springs from the conditions of the here and now. Inauthentic action springs from thoughts of what we think or want conditions to be as opposed to what really are.
So much ritual and kata with notion of somehow breaking out of it with the "zen slap" to the sudden awakening and understanding of what is. Hmmm... I am sure it works. But I doubt it's the only method that would.
Okay, enough rambling this morning.
david
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Stryke
Zen/Zin
Just my perspective of kata
You add Bunkai and you distort the kata , you make it your interpratation of the kata , you then teach it to someone else , they then learn your kata , they loose the endless possibilities that are in it , they loose the oppurtunity to find there own meaning .
Im a great believer in seperating kata and bunkai , they flow into each other but there not the same .
I also believe if you perfect one thing then you perfect everything .
Is that a little zen
thanks for keeping me thinking
Stryke
You add Bunkai and you distort the kata , you make it your interpratation of the kata , you then teach it to someone else , they then learn your kata , they loose the endless possibilities that are in it , they loose the oppurtunity to find there own meaning .
Im a great believer in seperating kata and bunkai , they flow into each other but there not the same .
I also believe if you perfect one thing then you perfect everything .
Is that a little zen
thanks for keeping me thinking
Stryke
Zen/Zin
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Stryke, what is "perfection" in kata? Is there a ideal pattern that must be followed precisely? Is it merely the movement of the body or does it encompass a certain frame of mind? Must that frame of mind be the same time after time?
And, lastly who judges?
I will admit to never having done a "perfect" kata, as I cannot say that I know the definition of "perfection." I only understand effort. I therefore find solace in Hawthorne's belief that "perfection is not of this world."
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited January 05, 2002).]
The "moon in the dewdrop." Okay.I also believe if you perfect one thing then you perfect everything .
Stryke, what is "perfection" in kata? Is there a ideal pattern that must be followed precisely? Is it merely the movement of the body or does it encompass a certain frame of mind? Must that frame of mind be the same time after time?
And, lastly who judges?
I will admit to never having done a "perfect" kata, as I cannot say that I know the definition of "perfection." I only understand effort. I therefore find solace in Hawthorne's belief that "perfection is not of this world."
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited January 05, 2002).]
