Phoenix-eye fist

[PMeyer]

Just curious what kind of importance y'all put on the shoken?

Is it generally considered to be a linear strike or are different surfaces (of the hand) and angles (of attack) used?



[This message has been edited by PMeyer (edited March 03, 2002).]

[Rick Wilson]

I think the Shoken or Phoenix eye fist (one knuckle fist) should be a staple in Uechi Ryu practise. The effectiveness of the strike jumps considerably.

In Uechi Ryu there was no Seiken fist at the start. It is even said that the first three moves of Kanshiwa were originally shoken fists until Uechi Kanei Sensei changed them.

In Uechi Ryu the strike is most often delivered in a linear manner. A similar style Bart Mei (White Eye Brow) delivers a Shoken like knocking on a door. Having seen Bob Campbell Sensei demonstrate this method I can say that it is very effective. I like to use this method when attacking extended limbs. This methods great for a short powered strike out of Sanchin position.

I think there is also a good discussion to be had for how to make a Shoken fist. Some styles use the second finger, Uechi Ryu uses the index (first) finger. But even more so how to hold the fist. I have seen three ways:

1) The index finger is extended and the thumb is tucked in behind it.

2) The index finger is extended and the thumb is pressed hard against the side of the finger.

3) The index finger is extended and the thumb is pressed hard on top of the finger.

I find the first method hard to strike hard with and not injuring the thumb, but some (my teacher David Mott Sensei and friend Reg Kinal) have no problems.

The second method is a common compromise that seems to work well and does not lose the gripping aspect when the hands are rolled into the fist while ripping and grabbing the opponent's flesh.

I personally like the third method because I can hit hard with it. I first learned it at a seminar with Michael Depasquale Sr. and since then I have seen it used by various styles such as some Hsing I Chuan.

Rick

[Bill Glasheen]

All of the above written by Rick is true and right on the money.

HOWEVER...

I always tell my people that "half hard, half soft" is probably a poor translation of pangainoon. Yin and yang might be better. Or my favorite is "sometimes this, sometimes that."

Along that line, we have to remember that Uechi is really somewhere inbetween a striking and a grappling system, to use terms borrowed from the mixed martial arts arena. With that in mind, both the shoken and hiraken are EQUALLY useful as strikes (thrusts, pokes), and grabs. Unfortunately most of the greater Uechiryu community only think of these techniques as strikes. That's even true on Okinawa, where this Chinese system has been made to look a lot like other Okinawan karate systems.

In the case of the shoken, the lift and turn in seisan is the classic example. If you were only here... I could show you all those nice places to grab someone, and how grabbing and twisting with a shoken makes all the difference in the world. There are many, many such "handles" on the body. As long as you are doing traditional karate sparring, you'll never have a need and you'll never get it. But put yourself in a grappling and/or self defense situation and the epiphany hits you! (sorry, bad pun)

I am also very much with Rick on the issue of training. If you don't work on the hand development, you'll never, ever use the shoken, boshiken, or hiraken. Same is true for the sokusen, and that technique is VERY useful in self defense when you consider that you'll likely be attacked with shoes on.

I had my doubts when I first started studying Uechi ryu. I had already studied a hard Japanese sysem where punching was king. I have very delicate hands, better suited for surgery than for bludgeoning. I also came into martial arts with little flexibility. I never though I'd ever be flexible, and I never thought I'd ever be able to use any of the Uechiryu open hand techniques.

A funny thing happens when you just forget about a goal, and concentrate on your training. I did my first lateral split at age 39. I've only hit it two other times since then, but I now have MUCH better than average flexibility. The same is true of my hand techniques. I've picked up some really neat training techniques in the last few years, and I am VERY surprised at how quickly one can develop the hands and toes. I'll never poke holes in plywood, mind you, but I am now confident that I have weapons that can be used in various scenarios. The most obvious to me (and least obvious to the strikers) is when in a grappling situation, whether it be thrusting, striking, poking, or grabbing.

This stuff is all about self defense, and little to do with "sport." It all becomes obvious when you do your training (homework) and then you are ready to really get down and dirty.

Rick

I agree with you about the various ways to do a shoken, or hiraken and boshiken for that matter. I choose to do mine in a manner whereby I can apply them as either thrusts/strikes/pokes or grabs. That pretty much narrows it down to one way for me, and that's fine. Simple is good.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I think it's also worth mentioning that various weapons can be thought of as extensions of the Uechi open-handed techniques. A knife makes a nice application of the sanchin nukite, particularly the palm-up variety as in kanshu or seisan. A sai in retracted mode can be thought of as an extension of a shoken. There are other good examples.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Rick,

I just can't visualize the difference between shoken #2 & shoken #3.

Got pictures? Or links go pictures?

Also - if you're poking a shoken into a relative soft space or gap on the body -- how hard to you need to be able to hit with it before it is effective?

thanks,
Dana

[Rick Wilson]

Dana:

Sorry no pictures, but maybe I can do better on the descriptions.

Shoken number two has the fist much like a regular fist. It has the thumb on the side of the fist. The index finger is slightly extended to form the shoken and the thumb is pressed against the first knuckle from the tip of the index finger.

Shoken number three has the thumb moved to be on top of the fist and not the side. This now has the thumb pressing down from the top onto the bent index finger. As an added bonus the first knuckle from the tip of the thumb is now slightly raised and can also be used for striking.

I find that in Shoken number one the thumb can be damaged when striking.

In Shoken number two the index finger can be pushed out of position when striking.

In Shoken number three the fist is held firmly and safely. (But it is harder to do the ripping tearing moves.)

It is hard to say how hard you need to hit with a Shoken because it depends on the target and the person being hit. However, soft spots are no the only target for Shokens. I have seen more ribs broken with a Shoken than anything else. When grabbed striking the the back of the hands with Shokens is very good strategy (hard to grapple with broken hands).


Rick

[Rick Wilson]

Dana:

I just remembered where I had some pictures of the three types of shokens.

I'll try to have them scanned and then try to figure out how to post them (hints anyone).


Rick

[Rick Wilson]

Dana:

I don't know how to post images.

If you email me at wilson@wilsonkarate.com
I will send them to you.


Rick

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick

I just made a request for some help on the tech forum. The cavalry should be on the way. I would very much like to see these posted on this thread.

Breaking ribs with your shokens up there, eh? Could it be perhaps that you folks have frozen your ninnies up there and you're just a tad brittle?

But seriously... From what I've read of those like Bruce Miller that are into the targeted, sequential striking business (a.k.a. kyusho) one may also be interested in targets between the ribs as opposed to on the rib. If you get the right angle, you can lay a shoken tip right on a nerve. I know that when I was doing 2 or 3 lateral thorachotomies a week (opening up the chest inbetween the ribs to do open heart surgery) I had to be careful to enter on the correct side of a rib lest I hit the artery/vein/nerve bundle and spend the next 10 minutes dealing with bleeders.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Thanks Rick, Bill et al. I think I understand which is which.

I'm with Bill on the striking between ribs vs stiking on them. Which is a little more difficult on trained MArtists who know how to do what's called "closing the ribs" in Chinese MArts.

Personaly I condition my different fists on mung bean bags that are 10" sqaure and 1.5" thick, stacked 2 deep. A little dit da jao before and after. I don't "hit" the bags, I just let the technique fall into them. This has given me condition that I'm comfortable I can hit hard with against soft places. I'm of the hit hard places on uke with open hand strikes and hit soft places with closed knuckle strikes school myself.

Quote from Jim Thompson at his last seminar in Philly
"There's not enough room for both a shoken and an eye in here" -- he was pointed to his eye socket at the time.

Dana

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick

Check this out, and please arrange with George. Thanks.

Posting pictures

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

Hi Bill:

Thanks you very much for the info. I'll try to see if my daughter, my magical web master, can post these to my web site's gallery and then to the forum. If she doesn't have time (that college thing) I'll take George Sensei up on his kind offer.

As for the broken ribs -- they don't call us Crazy Canucks for nothing.

Dana:

I agree that the rib compression done in Chinese styles / Uechi Ryu help protect you.


As for aiming in between the ribs unless they are not wearing a shirt wouldn't this be a tough target? I say just drive the shoken in there and if it goes in-between great, if it goes through great too .


Rick