The knife and self defense

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david
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The knife and self defense

Post by david »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We all know that aikido and karate practitioners spend a certain amount of time defending against knife attacks. The exercise usually goes like this:

* Tori advances with a step and either a knife thrust or strike.

* Uke blocks, grabs, opens up a can of whoopa$$, and dispenses with the attacker.

* As an embellishment, the uke often disarms the attacker and returns the knife.

Fine... Do that over and over again for about ten years. Got it down? Good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember one of my sempais at the aikido dojo saying to me -- in all seriousness -- he thought he could handle someone with a knife... Astonished, I said, "Really? Let's step on the mat and find out." (This was doable since the early morning classes were small and we had more freedom.) I would give him maybe one successful attempt out of ten at blocking -- not disarming -- the "non-traditional" attacks. The other times he was shredded and diced with multi-directional, combination attacks.

The fallacy of some of these defenses against knife (weapons) attacks is the idea --as another friend of mine stated -- of the "one armed attacker." This approach thinks tori simply has to control the weapon hand and the attacker won't do anything else with his other hand. This also doesn't recognize that as the tori goes to do one of the often used, wrist-lock type of disarm, the uke with some knowledge can also twist and turn out of tori's grip and, in the process, slice and strip the flesh right off tori's hands/arms like laser through ice cream.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
What of the magic marker exercise. Surely that can't mean anything, right? I mean after all, the guy just touched you with the tip of a marker. What the heck does that mean?
To fully appreciate what this means, buy a cheap roast, hang it up and go a-slicing with a blade. Even a 2" edge will amply show what can be done to an arm, leg, body or neck... Image (Warning -- not an exercise for squeamish vegetarians!) Now, try with 3", 5" and 12" blades...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Bruno has the knife. It's such a short little thing. You know...not like the kind Crocodile Dundee carries! You have trained kill techniques with a knife for years. You have done thousands of knife disarms against your fellow practitioners in class. Are you ready?
I loved what Tuhon Bill MacGrath said at his seminar when asked what he would do when faced with someone with a blade while empty handed. His answer was something like: Run! if you can. If not, pick up something, anything... If you have to engage, get the best shot you can (Good luck!), disengage, make distance and keep going. If not, get your weapon out, or pick up something, anything... Here's a guy who's been practicing with and against weapons for decades. Hmmm... what does he know, eh? Image

david


[This message has been edited by david (edited July 17, 2001).]
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Panther
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The knife and self defense

Post by Panther »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by david:

... in the process, slice and strip the flesh right off (attacker's) hands/arms like laser through ice cream.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What happens when you face a real attacker who has a knife? When you're finished and (if? Image ) you survive, you'll be able to go to all your Martial Arts friends and say neat things like, "Wanna see my scars?" Image
MyosimKa
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The knife and self defense

Post by MyosimKa »

Can't remember which instructor said it but I've kept this quote in mind whenever I train. "If you face a man with a knife, you will get cut. All you should hope for is controlling where." This proved true in practice drills with chalk-edged weapons and magic markers.(And the one time I did something totally moronic with a training partner and let him attack me with a live blade in an unrehearsed fashion. Needless to say, I still hold this as the all time stupid move I have ever seen anyone make. Wish I could say I'd seen someone else do it, rather than myself. Although I did learn that a Myo Sim technique can be useful in knife fighting. Sorry had to get that one in. LOL) Learned alot about presenting the outside of my forearm and defensive wounds that minimize damage. Probably the best attitude I could have adopted in my training as well. Because the one thing I do not have is a sense of security when it comes to a knife. I don't feel that I can defend myself. I think I might be able to get lucky if I ever have to defend myself from a knife wielding attacker. But then again I might get lucky if I played the lottery. Frankly, I just choose not to play. I love to train with the knife but I decided long ago that unless I am absolutely certain giving up my wallet, watch and wedding ring will not save my life, I am simply going to comply and pray my homeowner's insurance will reimburse me. After all, you never know if the other guy spent 3 years training with the Dog Brothers before he decided to ruin your day.
Sensei Glasheen: As to defanging the snake, obviously you studied with someone who has a background in Philippino arts. Would that be anywhere near Charlottesville? Sure would be nice to find a training partner or 2 locally.

email me at curiousncville@hotmail.com
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Bill Glasheen
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The knife and self defense

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I will do better than that. I will contact you when Raffi comes to town. He's better than I am at the subject.

Me...I do the best I can. Image

I'll be happy to meet you and share any aspect of life you wish. You obviously understand the points well. While my visits to Charlottesvile aren't that common with my hectic schedule, I'll see what I can do next time I make the trip.

- Bill
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LeeDarrow
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The knife and self defense

Post by LeeDarrow »

In a real knife fight, in a real bar outside of Detroit several years ago, I witnessed one of the single most stunning moves I have ever witnessed. Non-lethal, total debilitation of a drunk, enraged, rednecked twit who made the mistake of trying his luck on the "baby-killing pool table repairman." (that's idiot-ese for Green Beret Sgt. Major).

The Green Beret idly flicked his right hand in what looked like a move to swish a fly away from his face.

The Redneck stopped in mid-swing with his Arkansas Toothpick and SCREAMED!

Finally, I looked down to see a small, octagonal handle made of steel seemingly perched on the top of this guy's boot.

As his two friends stopped to figure out what had happened, the Green Beret said, quietly, "Leave it. It's part of a matched set." In each hand, he held, point-first, matching ice picks.

The rowdies left, the bartender was polite, the Green Beret said to me (as I had come swinging over the railing to his defense - I was the house magician at the time and still practicing MA so I doubled as an as-needed bouncer), "Remember - fight the man, not the weapon."

Truer words...

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
student
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The knife and self defense

Post by student »

Is that where you picked up the "Mumblety-Foot" technique, Lee?
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The knife and self defense

Post by Raffi Derderian »

Nice thread.
I have trained in martial arts 28 years now and in the Filipino arts for 11. I still consider myself a beginner in all areas of my various studies. However, in my travels I have seen some of the most rediculous knife strategies. One time I was at a camp (not GEM's) watching another instructor (a very famous one at that) teach knife disarms. As this person is very well known I was excited about seeing his stuff. He taught some "okay" knife stuff. Then he said "as a last resort, if all else fails, GRAB THE BLADE OF THE KNIFE!". Grab the blade he said. And then he showed how, on a rubber knife of course. This guy has faded out a bit but he still gets big dough for a class. He just reached out and grabbed the damn blade. Dumbest thing I ever saw. I can't think of anyone who could do that.
This incident of course made me glad for my teachers. Like everyone else here of course I am proud to be affiliated with my instructors. I feel they deal in the finest reality based martial arts.
Raf


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Bill Glasheen
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The knife and self defense

Post by Bill Glasheen »

On another thread, Mr. Mooney posted a copyrighted article by Mr. Redenback about martial arts and self-defense training. Mr. Redenbach brought up an anecdote (always dangerous but...can be informative) where an individual falsely assumed his training and knowledge about the knife would help him with some punk that "appeared" not to know what he was doing. The results apparently were disastrous. In another part of the article, Mr. Redenbach brings up a well-known exercise where someone attempts to mark an individual with a magic marker, and a trained fighter attempts to "disarm" and/or destroy the marker. The usual result is that even highly trained fighters end up with marks all over themselves.

Later on I did a bit of an analysis (for my own mental exercise) of the long article. On the knife part, I brought up two examples of individuals training with the knife a certain way, and alluded to this being a problem. Those that train in Filipino knife methods probably readily understood my point. But in this case I mentioned a style and voila, some practitioner of that style appears to defend his people. Well what do you know? Nice to know people are paying attention! Image After the usual "my way vs. your way" stuff, the exchange ended.

However I think the point should not be lost, and is worth bringing up in a separate thread. Mr. Redenbach's message may not have come across clearly, but there are vital points to be understood for anyone considering martial arts as a method of self-defense preparation.

We all know that there are "one shot kill" artists out there. This is neither good nor bad; it is one quite valid approach. Especially when one is empty handed, focusing on power and destroying your opponent quickly is a very good approach.

We all know that soldiers train with rifles, and we know they train with bayonets on the ends of those rifles. We all know that one good well-placed thrust with a bayonet will finish an opponent. Now...take the knife off the end of the rifle. What kind of weapon do you have, and how can it be used?

It's all well and good to have a one-shot-kill approach to your offense. It's all well and good to decide one will make knife offenses an extension of that empty hand philosophy.

We all know that aikido and karate practitioners spend a certain amount of time defending against knife attacks. The exercise usually goes like this:

* Tori advances with a step and either a knife thrust or strike.

* Uke blocks, grabs, opens up a can of whoopa$$, and dispenses with the attacker.

* As an embellishment, the uke often disarms the attacker and returns the knife.

Fine... Do that over and over again for about ten years. Got it down? Good.

Now we are in a bar in some Asian land. You just looked at some fine, lithe lass, and she is batting her eyes at you. You buy her a drink, and she is coming on strong. Next thing you know, you realize that the young lass was just using you to make her boyfriend jealous. Bruno whips out a small blade and is ready to take you on. Are you ready???

What of the magic marker exercise. Surely that can't mean anything, right? I mean after all, the guy just touched you with the tip of a marker. What the heck does that mean?

Many moons ago when I was in high school (somewhere between the dark ages and the renaissance...) I remember our first dissection class. Colonel Dick gave us our first lesson on the use of a scalpel. Some of the girls in the class were quite squeamish at using this sharp thingy, and Colonel Dick knew it. So the first thing he does is have us take the scalpel, and push the blade on our finger. Say what??? I kid you not. "Only a moving blade will do damage," he said. "As long as you hold it still, you are fine. Pressing the blade on your finger won't hurt, although I don't want you to make it a habit. You must move the blade to cut. But remember that a moving blade cuts!!"

Fast forward a few years (that's an understatement...). I have performed...oh...maybe a few thousand cannulations of major blood vessels. I have performed open-heart surgery a few hundred times. I have a pretty good idea where all the major body parts are. I spent a few days with Raffi Derderian and his Filipino knife methods. Suddenly my mental eyes saw something really big! All those years of life experience suddenly make sense.

Ever heard of a concept called defanging the snake? One can consider the head, neck, and torso completely off limits, and still incapacitate an opponent very quickly with a decent blade. If you know where the blood vessels, tendons, nerves, and muscles are... You don't really need to be that accurate; these structures are very long and you are just going to cut across the grain. It doesn't take much, as long as the blade is moving.

Consider that I need to be able to go a number of places, and it's nice to have a handy blade in my pocket. Consider that my favorite blade is less than 3 inches, and is curved. It won't even stab. Now how could that be a dangerous weapon??? But we all know I carry it because it is a useful tool. Image And that is exactly what I will say if ever I am on a witness stand - period.

You can choose to have linear methods of attack with a blade. You can choose to have a handful of simple, "kill" techniques with the blade, and you will probably be better off than a person you will face without the blade.

Now lets go back to that bar scene. Bruno has the knife. It's such a short little thing. You know...not like the kind Crocodile Dundee carries! You have trained kill techniques with a knife for years. You have done thousands of knife disarms against your fellow practitioners in class. Are you ready? Did Mr. Redenbach have a point, or is he blowing smoke?

Think about it...

- Bill
Allen M.

The knife and self defense

Post by Allen M. »

A couple of quick replies:

1) I got stabbed in the cheekbone once, and another time was lunged at in HS by someone with a jack knife, all before karate. The ONLY thing I remember that came close to any karate moves I've learned since that time was that when my classmate lunged at my chest with the jack knife I moved out of the way. When I woke up to the little surprise attack, there was no time to raise my arms and block.

2) In my younger, more agile years I went the magic marker route, only instead used chalk on the blade edge of wooden practice knives and did the matches shirtless so the marks (long little red welts as well as blue chalk) would show up. Two things a) both parties get marked up, seemingly equally well. b) One fights much more aggressively against another if he also has a knife. Without one it is avoidance, with one you have to be more aggressive than the other person.

3)Raf said GRABBING the knife. Two things: a) There is a move in a Tang Soo do form that teaches stopping the blade by pressing the palms together in front of the face. REAL stupid. I don't remember which form, but it is someplace in brown belt level. I can't believe any MA style would teach that. b) I've done a few full contact thingies in FMA where one person is suited up (just hockey pads and a helmet; nothing fancy) and uses a "soft" padded stick while the other is in regular garb and uses a standard stick. You don't need chalk to find out you've been hit. The first time I did it, a la suitless, I tried to block karate style. NOPE! Fingers get cracked too often. I eventually learned the best way to do keep from getting hit so often is to keep pumping that stick and try to keep the other on the defensive. When both are aggressive, there is no technique and it becomes a cock fight. Both fight differently when a partner wears a protective armor suit. It takes fighting to an entirely different level from the magic marker routine.


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Victor
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The knife and self defense

Post by Victor »

Some random thoughts on the knife.

Agree about the Tang Soo Do double knife grab, I saw that myself when I studied that art a quater century ago. I honestly believe the source of that was the kung fu flic, 'The Five Fingers of Death'.

As for Aikido and Japanese Knife Defenses, yes as we view the knife today, they appear un-realistic. But I believe you also have to consider the context in which they were grounded.

I believe the source was the way the knife (Tanto) developed in Japan. Apparently in close quarters the straight thrust with the Tanto was an acctual attack. I also understand Tanto was among the most advanced studies offered in kenjutsu. Apparently teaching somebody to dismember an enemy as a beginner was ok, but teaching the same person to use a knife was reserved only for those students you really trusted.

Trevor Leggett in his book 'Zen and the Ways' refers to deaths due to straight thrusts attacks with the knife. Nakasone Genwa in his magnificent work "Karatedo Taikan" (1938) demonstrates those specific linear attack defenses against the knife.

Aikido training I've received (empty hand) becomes magnified against the same attack with a knife in the opponent’s hand. That being due to the leverage and pain of a grab applied to someone holding a knife and using that static event against their fingers and wrist. My own opinion those defenses work quite well if the opponent agrees to only thrust.

On the other hand, we are well aware of the wider range of knife attacks out there, and frankly stepping out of the attack zone is definitely the better response.

As for myself, we use the study of Bando's form "The Hidden Stick" both as a tool to understand how to pick anything up for self-defense, and as a textbook of possible applications of the stick as a knife, to add to our awareness of the dangerousness of these attacks.

Frankly I think the Chinese with their 19' spears had an adequate defense against knife attacks in mind with their development <Grin>

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
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Bill Glasheen
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The knife and self defense

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Raf and Allen

I've seen the blade grabbing technique too, and it is as Allen described. I'm embarrassed to say that someone I highly respected showed it to me. Oh well...can't be right all the time. The point that was made - which was certainly true - is that someone could probably do this and not get their hand cut (once the palms were pressed together). My thought at the time was 'Now what???' So here I am - in striking range - with both my hands occupied holding a blade and my opponent has a free hand in range of me. Furthermore, I may not get cut when he (most likely successfully) pulls the blade out of my hand press. However, I am now in range of that newly freed blade. Oops!!! While I didn't think to question it at the time (I really hadn't studied knife much at that point...), it didn't occur to me to be something I would ever consider doing. Boy, that's an understatement! Image

Allen

I like your assessments. Both realistic practice and life experience show the wisdom of your thinking. If ever there was a reason to convince people that sanchin beatings internalize wrong-headed thinking…

- Bill
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TSDguy
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The knife and self defense

Post by TSDguy »

LOL! I didn't know TSD forms got this much attention. No sabumnim I've ever met has taught that move, except that it's in the stupid form. One was asked what the effectiveness of it was and he said "ummm, maybe one in a billion, but if you've got a sword coming down on your head it'll make you feel better that you were doing something as you died." At the point the move is applied your best bet is to move enough to one side to only lose 1/4 of your torso rather than split in two. Image

Anyway, I saw it work in Mortal Kombat.
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Panther
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The knife and self defense

Post by Panther »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TSDguy:

Anyway, I saw it work in Mortal Kombat.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So it must be true! Image
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LeeDarrow
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The knife and self defense

Post by LeeDarrow »

Yep, student! Sure is!

Mumblety-Foot works! I am a witness! I have used it (in a practice session - freaked out my opponent no end!)! Live it, breathe it, flaunt it! But make damn sure you hit ABOVE the steel toes of the work boots! And throw HARD!

Can I get an "Amen!"

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by student:
Is that where you picked up the "Mumblety-Foot" technique, Lee?
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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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LeeDarrow
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Post by LeeDarrow »

On a more serious note than my last post, I have noticed people talking a lot about kali stick and knife counters, which are fine, but how many of us walk around with a pair of escrimador sticks? No flame, here, just a comment.

What, if anything, have people done with regards to opportunity weapons (I know this is getting to sound like a mantra, but it's so seriously overlooked!)?

A handful of change into a knife fighter's face can ruin an attack move long enough for someone to get out of Dodge, chairs, sticks, gravel, parked cars can all contribute to a successful counter to a blade slinger.

Grabbing a broomhandle can give you a considerable amount of protection (watch your fingers!) as can a trash can lid (which are becoming increasingly rare), a rolled up newspaper, cell phone, brief case, paperback or hardback book or any of the myriads of other weapons available.

I am reminded of a great counter weapon scene from a BAD movie. Judge Reinhold using boiling coffee jitsu to disable a man with a gun. THAT'S thinking! Fast Times at Ridgemont High, for the interested.

All too often, in real life situations, we believe that, just because we have a black belt, we are able to handle something unarmed when, sitting right next to us, is a more effective and safer response.

Why take the risk?

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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