My critique would have been very similar to Glasheen-sensei's, (though not as well written). Other than a general condemnation of the state of martial arts training which doesn't apply universally anyway, I saw nothing to impress me that the authors were more experienced than the people the were criticizing.
David made some provocative statements:
"Anyway, in modern Western societies, including Australia, there are perhaps (thankfully) less day to day experiences to draw from. I would think it important to draw a review panel that is broader and more diverse to assess any training program designed for folks going into harm's way."
And:
"It is interesting to note William Fairbairn, as head of the Shanghai Military Police, routinely evaluated his training program based on the experiences of his men in the field."
I've tried in the past to convene a regular meeting of DT instructors to AA uses of force. The goal would not be to assess justification, but to analyze practicality and effect. Our training units consensus is that there might be legal liability in discussing what worked. That drives me up a wall.
But it would be so valuable to pool experience in actual applications.
Rory
Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics Training?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics Training?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
* What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Imagine the next new-kid-in-town turning the legal eagles on Global Security. Now wouldn't that be special?
This is a business fraught with uncertainty and chance. Bad things do go wrong for no particularly good reason. Law often has nothing to do with truth. Helpless victims get compensated if the representation is right - in spite of causality.
* True quality improvement involves a frank, tough evaluation process that is fodder for litigation efforts later on. I've been subpoenaed before because of the work I've done (not because of something bad I did...). Here I was minding my own business, investigating causality and process of care with asthmatics and people with COPD. Next thing I know, all my electronic and paper files are open to outside eyes, and I'm testifying in a national lawsuit having nothing to do with me. And some idiot defense attorney from New York is grilling me for hours, trying to get me to say something he can use for HIS benefit - never mind the truth. Sigh...
Industry has a concept called "six sigma", where the "error rate" in production facilities are brought down to unbelievably small levels. It's the only way you can get a modern, complex plane off the ground (complexity increases the likelihood something will go wrong). Many industries that apply six sigma in their own processes have attempted to demand it of their healthcare benefits. But unfortunately many MDs and hospitals are unwilling to go through the process because the exposure and analysis of errors (and there are MANY...) gives food for the ambulance chasers.
Personally though I think good people just need to say *&%$ the ambulance chasers and do what is right. Often it isn't the discovery and analysis of problems that is the downfall of a major company or an individual, it's the failure to properly address the issues identified. Sometimes I think our own risk management people (many of them lawyers...) keep us in the dark ages. We need to have the courage to face risk head on in order to avoid it in the future.
- Bill
Note: I could say a LOT more on this subject...but I won't. Those who have ever testified in lawsuits understand.
This captures the dilemma I spoke of above. Mr. Redenbach is so quick to consider litigation as a tool to advance his concerns. But there is irony to this:I've tried in the past to convene a regular meeting of DT instructors to AA uses of force. The goal would not be to assess justification, but to analyze practicality and effect. Our training units consensus is that there might be legal liability in discussing what worked. That drives me up a wall.
* What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Imagine the next new-kid-in-town turning the legal eagles on Global Security. Now wouldn't that be special?
This is a business fraught with uncertainty and chance. Bad things do go wrong for no particularly good reason. Law often has nothing to do with truth. Helpless victims get compensated if the representation is right - in spite of causality.* True quality improvement involves a frank, tough evaluation process that is fodder for litigation efforts later on. I've been subpoenaed before because of the work I've done (not because of something bad I did...). Here I was minding my own business, investigating causality and process of care with asthmatics and people with COPD. Next thing I know, all my electronic and paper files are open to outside eyes, and I'm testifying in a national lawsuit having nothing to do with me. And some idiot defense attorney from New York is grilling me for hours, trying to get me to say something he can use for HIS benefit - never mind the truth. Sigh...
Industry has a concept called "six sigma", where the "error rate" in production facilities are brought down to unbelievably small levels. It's the only way you can get a modern, complex plane off the ground (complexity increases the likelihood something will go wrong). Many industries that apply six sigma in their own processes have attempted to demand it of their healthcare benefits. But unfortunately many MDs and hospitals are unwilling to go through the process because the exposure and analysis of errors (and there are MANY...) gives food for the ambulance chasers.
Personally though I think good people just need to say *&%$ the ambulance chasers and do what is right. Often it isn't the discovery and analysis of problems that is the downfall of a major company or an individual, it's the failure to properly address the issues identified. Sometimes I think our own risk management people (many of them lawyers...) keep us in the dark ages. We need to have the courage to face risk head on in order to avoid it in the future.
- Bill
Note: I could say a LOT more on this subject...but I won't. Those who have ever testified in lawsuits understand.
Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics Training?
Have to respond in defense of a derogatory remark made about Myo Sim knife work. I have studied under Jeet Kun Do Unlimited(Burton Richardson) and, while the Myo Sim knife forms have a distinctly Japanese flare that doesn't sit well with my Kali background, the primary principles of angles of attacks as well as different grips were well represented in their forms. Also, the angles of defense were very similar(although I feel Myo Sim's hand positions are a bit too rigid) Lastly, the entire system followed the Japanese/Okinawan philosophy of "one situation, one shot" and as a result, over focused on kill shots with the knife instead of the more fluid approach I prefer with a knife but I see that as a conflict with my previous training and not a flaw in the system.
Incidentally, I tried practicing with the Uechi club for a time but found the stances too restrictive and too exposed in either defensive or sparring situations(although I believe that stems mainly from the instructor at the time) I never trained with weapons here though so can't comment to Uechi on that. Sensei Glasheen, I'd be curious to know whether the Uechi club here still regularly practices knife work. I'd love to find someone locally to practice knife/stick work.
Incidentally, I tried practicing with the Uechi club for a time but found the stances too restrictive and too exposed in either defensive or sparring situations(although I believe that stems mainly from the instructor at the time) I never trained with weapons here though so can't comment to Uechi on that. Sensei Glasheen, I'd be curious to know whether the Uechi club here still regularly practices knife work. I'd love to find someone locally to practice knife/stick work.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics Training?
Boy, talk about a small world... But if we can't tweak a few noses around here, what fun is it, eh?
Your response is appreciated, by the way. And you know what? I can't disagree with your assessments. So in a way, we see eye to eye. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
First of all, Uechi stances are anything but exposed. One of the reasons Uechika usually win the All Okinawa sparring tournament every year - a very tough, international affair - is because they are just the opposite. The system is quite conservative with its shallow stances; it's origins are the Boxer Rebellion period in China were rebel groups were training to fight and kill. The forms you were/are exposed to in Myo Sim are much more like the Shotokan/TKD forms that have deeper stances and more open-chested arm positions. When you allow people to do leg kicks, all those deep stance mysteriously disappear. When you get up close and personal (it is an infighting system), or consider a "typical" self defense situation, the hand positions magically transition to the familiar sanchin position.
The Uechi system starts with a form that at first is quite an enigma. Unfortunately people don't appreciate the unrestricted simplicity of the form (sounds like an oxymoron, but not really). Many try to breathe aspects into it that are nothing like the original southern chinese form that it came from (in the SAME area in fact where Bruce Lee's instructor studied). Real Uechi ryu - as I view it - is very fast, fluid, and quite conservative (i.e. don't give anything to the other guy) in its approach. It has nothing to do with standing in one place and taking lots of hits. I have learned much about my style by studying Wing Chun forms, films, and applications. If you did the same, you would see that Bruce Lee's ideas aren't that original; he just repackaged them and added a bit of Filipino fluidity and spontaneity. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I never would have thought to study a style like Uechi ryu; Myo Sim was much closer to my first style of karate. But a fellow by the name of Rad Smith came down and started a club the next January. He was a Harvard grad that had studied Uechi from a few folks that are well known today. The uniquely fluid approach to martial arts was something that was anathema to the traditional Japanese/Okinawan approach I was taught. Perhaps because it was so different, it made it easier for me to make the transition to another style. I have to tell you though, it has taken me a very long time to assimilate the message. And from my perspective (never short of opinions ) many who study the style really bastardize the heck out of the original system that Uechi Kanbun brought from China. As Bobby Campbell once said, "It is a Chinese style in Okinawan clothes."
Too bad you didn't get to work with either Ian or Tim when they were at UVa. Both of them just left. They both have worked with Raffi Derderian (who has another forum here, by the way), our Uechi/JKD/kali/escrima expert. But this summer I'm working with the new guy who will be teaching the club this fall. He may be a ways away from doing any weapon work, but we'll get him there.
Every so often we bring Raffi down, and the UVa Uechi folk make a trek to Richmond. Keep in touch; we'd love to have you.
And thanks for being a good sport about all the criticism. Your points were well received.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 16, 2001).]
Your response is appreciated, by the way. And you know what? I can't disagree with your assessments. So in a way, we see eye to eye. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Precisely my thoughts. To me it's like trying to do rap with a traditional symphony orchestra. Imagine that! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteover focused on kill shots with the knife instead of the more fluid approach I prefer with a knife
Fascinating... I learned what knife I know from a Uechika who is a godan in Uechi ryu and also has instructor status in JKD, kali, and escrima. We meet each other at Uechi camp every year, and he comes and visits us when he's doing JKD sessions in DC. Go figure...I have studied under Jeet Kun Do Unlimited...my Kali background...I tried practicing with the Uechi club for a time but found the stances too restrictive and too exposed in either defensive or sparring situations
First of all, Uechi stances are anything but exposed. One of the reasons Uechika usually win the All Okinawa sparring tournament every year - a very tough, international affair - is because they are just the opposite. The system is quite conservative with its shallow stances; it's origins are the Boxer Rebellion period in China were rebel groups were training to fight and kill. The forms you were/are exposed to in Myo Sim are much more like the Shotokan/TKD forms that have deeper stances and more open-chested arm positions. When you allow people to do leg kicks, all those deep stance mysteriously disappear. When you get up close and personal (it is an infighting system), or consider a "typical" self defense situation, the hand positions magically transition to the familiar sanchin position.
The Uechi system starts with a form that at first is quite an enigma. Unfortunately people don't appreciate the unrestricted simplicity of the form (sounds like an oxymoron, but not really). Many try to breathe aspects into it that are nothing like the original southern chinese form that it came from (in the SAME area in fact where Bruce Lee's instructor studied). Real Uechi ryu - as I view it - is very fast, fluid, and quite conservative (i.e. don't give anything to the other guy) in its approach. It has nothing to do with standing in one place and taking lots of hits. I have learned much about my style by studying Wing Chun forms, films, and applications. If you did the same, you would see that Bruce Lee's ideas aren't that original; he just repackaged them and added a bit of Filipino fluidity and spontaneity. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is funny, but I'm not laughing at you. Way back in 1973 I transferred from a small college that was a division of W&M to UVa engineering. I once studied from a Japanese who was samurai by lineage and a well-respected karateka (Hiroshi Hamada). He was/is the quintessential Japanese warrior. When I got to UVa, I wanted very much to continue my training, but was too "green" to teach. I did 3 or 4 Myo Sim classes, but it was a real let down for me compared to where I came from. It's hard to explain; perhaps you needed to be in my shoes. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteI believe that stems mainly from the instructor at the time
Such is life.I believe that stems mainly from the instructor at the time
I never would have thought to study a style like Uechi ryu; Myo Sim was much closer to my first style of karate. But a fellow by the name of Rad Smith came down and started a club the next January. He was a Harvard grad that had studied Uechi from a few folks that are well known today. The uniquely fluid approach to martial arts was something that was anathema to the traditional Japanese/Okinawan approach I was taught. Perhaps because it was so different, it made it easier for me to make the transition to another style. I have to tell you though, it has taken me a very long time to assimilate the message. And from my perspective (never short of opinions
) many who study the style really bastardize the heck out of the original system that Uechi Kanbun brought from China. As Bobby Campbell once said, "It is a Chinese style in Okinawan clothes."Too bad you didn't get to work with either Ian or Tim when they were at UVa. Both of them just left. They both have worked with Raffi Derderian (who has another forum here, by the way), our Uechi/JKD/kali/escrima expert. But this summer I'm working with the new guy who will be teaching the club this fall. He may be a ways away from doing any weapon work, but we'll get him there.
Every so often we bring Raffi down, and the UVa Uechi folk make a trek to Richmond. Keep in touch; we'd love to have you.
And thanks for being a good sport about all the criticism.
Your points were well received.- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 16, 2001).]
Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics Training?
Hey Bill... Got home at 6:30 from a day that started 8 the morning before and thinking on two hours sleep, so forgive me if I'm not in a mood to be poetic...
But, re: the original post, why can't we just say that karate people do karate because they want to and they should just be informed about whether the stuff works?
Everyone wants to deconstruct the stuff as if the whole point was to learn to open up a huge can of whoop a$$ of ten armed attackers. Why don't these people want to tear into the kendo folk? "Ah, but will you have a katana when you are attacked on the street?" Since when was that the friggin point? Over and over I've seen people come to our club who've never engaged in any sport activities, who are small and uncoordinated, who've never had an aggressive impulse, nevermind an action--and who've thrown themselves at Uechi and for whatever reason really enjoyed themselves and felt like they'd changed their approach to life because they can get through Kanshiwa Bunkai. Do the facts of a brawl in Soouth Africa speak to that experience?
I must be focused on doing things I enjoy for no other reason than enjoying them, since I haven't had a day off since 6/22. Premed students, be warned!
But, re: the original post, why can't we just say that karate people do karate because they want to and they should just be informed about whether the stuff works?
Everyone wants to deconstruct the stuff as if the whole point was to learn to open up a huge can of whoop a$$ of ten armed attackers. Why don't these people want to tear into the kendo folk? "Ah, but will you have a katana when you are attacked on the street?" Since when was that the friggin point? Over and over I've seen people come to our club who've never engaged in any sport activities, who are small and uncoordinated, who've never had an aggressive impulse, nevermind an action--and who've thrown themselves at Uechi and for whatever reason really enjoyed themselves and felt like they'd changed their approach to life because they can get through Kanshiwa Bunkai. Do the facts of a brawl in Soouth Africa speak to that experience?
I must be focused on doing things I enjoy for no other reason than enjoying them, since I haven't had a day off since 6/22. Premed students, be warned!
Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics Training?
Glasheen-Sensei,
Brilliant analysis of the article and it's (not mentioned by them) sequel.
Regardless of the correctness of some of the points in the article itself, the main problem is that this is a piece of marketing propaganda, touting Global Security as top dog when it comes to personal protection.
While they have a very good rep in the industry, they are not the be-all and end-all that they would have you believe. No one is.
Should we consider their blanket statement that MA training is for the birds - obviously not. Should we consider some of their specific issues with the MA - probably a good idea.
But any generalization, including theirs, is suspect.
Marketing is marketing. The objective is to get the consumer to buy your product over anyone else's. Omissions, factual errors and disregarding information is part of that game.
Before any of us get too upset with these folks, we have to understand that they are selling a service, nothing more or less.
That they chose to do it by slamming the MA (in some ways, justifiable, in others - don't make me laugh) is unfortunate.
It would be interesting to see how their people would do against Joe in a NHB match. My bet - 2 hits - Joe hits them, they hit the floor.
I wonder if the guys at Global are following this thread...?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Brilliant analysis of the article and it's (not mentioned by them) sequel.
Regardless of the correctness of some of the points in the article itself, the main problem is that this is a piece of marketing propaganda, touting Global Security as top dog when it comes to personal protection.
While they have a very good rep in the industry, they are not the be-all and end-all that they would have you believe. No one is.
Should we consider their blanket statement that MA training is for the birds - obviously not. Should we consider some of their specific issues with the MA - probably a good idea.
But any generalization, including theirs, is suspect.
Marketing is marketing. The objective is to get the consumer to buy your product over anyone else's. Omissions, factual errors and disregarding information is part of that game.
Before any of us get too upset with these folks, we have to understand that they are selling a service, nothing more or less.
That they chose to do it by slamming the MA (in some ways, justifiable, in others - don't make me laugh) is unfortunate.
It would be interesting to see how their people would do against Joe in a NHB match. My bet - 2 hits - Joe hits them, they hit the floor.
I wonder if the guys at Global are following this thread...?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics Training?
Gee Ian, you're pretty lucid for little sleep and such a long work day(s)!
Couldn't agree more. Sometimes people do things just because they enjoy it, and perhaps that's enough.
OTOH, some (many?) do want to know if things work, how and why. That becomes more important for people who are learning something because it's a <u>Martial</u> Art and want/need the self-defense capability. Perhaps they've been in a situation before and want to do better if it ever happens again.
Everyone has their own personal reasons for studying and training. "Because it's fun" is just as valid as anything else...
Couldn't agree more. Sometimes people do things just because they enjoy it, and perhaps that's enough.
OTOH, some (many?) do want to know if things work, how and why. That becomes more important for people who are learning something because it's a <u>Martial</u> Art and want/need the self-defense capability. Perhaps they've been in a situation before and want to do better if it ever happens again.
Everyone has their own personal reasons for studying and training. "Because it's fun" is just as valid as anything else...
