Good morning Bill,
RE: "a) When we are REALLY terrified, we tend to digress to the most simple movements, and things we have done ad nauseum."
Is it really a tested and proven fact that we can learn to respond with a learned and practiced set of moves when we are terrified?
I believe some of the new studies suggest we will always regress to a time before training to natural simple large muscle moves...
It would make the statment look more like this:
a) When we are REALLY terrified, we tend to digress to the most simple movements, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE things we have done ad nauseum.
What do you think?
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The Fighting Old Man
Changing The Katas
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Bill Glasheen
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Changing The Katas
Sochin
Your thoughts are worth consideration. I have a few of my own to add. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I work with data every day. Right now I'm doing some mathematical modeling to predict healthcare behavior in several populations I am studying. I have some seventy variables describing peoples' characteristics and behavior. I do not find any of these measures where everyone has the same value. "Always" and "never" only happen when you deal with small numbers. The world has all kinds of people, and it is behavior on the statistical edges that attract all our attention.
Even the Blauer folks will tell you that in scenario training, you see amazing behavior in some people. Yes, it is true that your average Joe with X amount of training will LIKELY behave a certain way. What we all hope for though in our training is NOT to be an average Joe. It is the extent to which we can deviate from the median behavior of an untrained person that is "interesting" in martial arts.
I like a lot of the work being done now. Things are being brought to light that shatter old preconceived notions. But so far we are just looking at (at the very best...) epidemiological studies of highly select groups of people. It's better than anecdote, but not as good as large, randomized, controlled trials. And I doubt there are many IRBs that would sanction such studies that cause the kind of trauma we are talking about. We are all still learning as best we can, combining retrospective debriefing with first principles understanding of the human animal.
Do I think training helps? It depends. It depends on the type of training. It depends on what is being trained. It depends on the amount of training. It depends on the individual. It depends on the level of stress encountered. It depends on the field experience of the individual. It depends on the age and hormone levels of the individual. It depends on the social factors working on the individual. It is complex at best, and very confusing at worst. We can make educated guesses - AND WE SHOULD - but Chaos tells us that we can never predict with 100% certainty.
My own particular anecdote has to do with my lifetime in sports. When I was 5 years old, my life goal was to play baseball for the Boston Red Sox. My father had me in a baseball glove at age three. By age 6, I was playing daily baseball games all summer long in the baseball field right by my home. I started martial arts at age 17. What I found is that I tend to block/parry/grab with the left and smash with the right - without thinking. I have done that in real self-defense situations without me knowing I have done it until it is done. And you know what? It is a lot like fielding a screaming grounder and throwing the ball to first base. It is a lot like catching the ball from the catcher and firing a fastball right by the batter. It is a lot like catching a fly ball and then trying to throw out the runner advancing to home. I have done all that ad nauseum, and it is burned in my psyche. My martial arts reflect those synapses formed early in my life.
Will I lose it when I am staring death in the face? One will never know. But I cheated the grim reaper once in life (knock on wood...). I dumped a motorcycle once when someone pulled out in front of me (with a rather large speed differential) and walked away from it (but had problems getting out of bed the next day...). I experienced all the things people talk about when terrified - all in less than a second or two. One anecdote... One success... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited June 26, 2001).]
Your thoughts are worth consideration. I have a few of my own to add. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Ouch! As soon as someone uses "always" or "never", I run for cover.I believe some of the new studies suggest we will always...
I work with data every day. Right now I'm doing some mathematical modeling to predict healthcare behavior in several populations I am studying. I have some seventy variables describing peoples' characteristics and behavior. I do not find any of these measures where everyone has the same value. "Always" and "never" only happen when you deal with small numbers. The world has all kinds of people, and it is behavior on the statistical edges that attract all our attention.
Even the Blauer folks will tell you that in scenario training, you see amazing behavior in some people. Yes, it is true that your average Joe with X amount of training will LIKELY behave a certain way. What we all hope for though in our training is NOT to be an average Joe. It is the extent to which we can deviate from the median behavior of an untrained person that is "interesting" in martial arts.
I like a lot of the work being done now. Things are being brought to light that shatter old preconceived notions. But so far we are just looking at (at the very best...) epidemiological studies of highly select groups of people. It's better than anecdote, but not as good as large, randomized, controlled trials. And I doubt there are many IRBs that would sanction such studies that cause the kind of trauma we are talking about. We are all still learning as best we can, combining retrospective debriefing with first principles understanding of the human animal.
Do I think training helps? It depends. It depends on the type of training. It depends on what is being trained. It depends on the amount of training. It depends on the individual. It depends on the level of stress encountered. It depends on the field experience of the individual. It depends on the age and hormone levels of the individual. It depends on the social factors working on the individual. It is complex at best, and very confusing at worst. We can make educated guesses - AND WE SHOULD - but Chaos tells us that we can never predict with 100% certainty.
My own particular anecdote has to do with my lifetime in sports. When I was 5 years old, my life goal was to play baseball for the Boston Red Sox. My father had me in a baseball glove at age three. By age 6, I was playing daily baseball games all summer long in the baseball field right by my home. I started martial arts at age 17. What I found is that I tend to block/parry/grab with the left and smash with the right - without thinking. I have done that in real self-defense situations without me knowing I have done it until it is done. And you know what? It is a lot like fielding a screaming grounder and throwing the ball to first base. It is a lot like catching the ball from the catcher and firing a fastball right by the batter. It is a lot like catching a fly ball and then trying to throw out the runner advancing to home. I have done all that ad nauseum, and it is burned in my psyche. My martial arts reflect those synapses formed early in my life.
Will I lose it when I am staring death in the face? One will never know. But I cheated the grim reaper once in life (knock on wood...). I dumped a motorcycle once when someone pulled out in front of me (with a rather large speed differential) and walked away from it (but had problems getting out of bed the next day...). I experienced all the things people talk about when terrified - all in less than a second or two. One anecdote... One success... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I'm comfortable with that.When we are REALLY terrified, we tend to digress to the most simple movements, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE things we have done ad nauseum.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited June 26, 2001).]
Changing The Katas
Bill says:'I'm comfortable with that.'
Me too.
So we do a kata many many times for many many years.
So we get programmed to react in a simple, powerful and effective manner.
Is there proof that this appens" Yes, there is, but does it happen for everyone, all the time, every time? Alas it does not.
But there is evidence, in form of many people's actual experiences, to show that it surely can happen.
But my first thing was jujitsu and then judo.My first reaction in self defense is hands up and tai sabaki.
Then move in and take down.It affects my karate such that the defense I did use when it happened was that type of karate defense that squared with the jiujitsu and judo.
Worked.Yes, I do kata that do that, from Shorin ryu. But I do others that do not, and I have never ever used a technique from them in actual self defense.Though I practiced them more.
Make of it what you will, but I tend to think early programming does tke precedence.
Regards,
John
Me too.
So we do a kata many many times for many many years.
So we get programmed to react in a simple, powerful and effective manner.
Is there proof that this appens" Yes, there is, but does it happen for everyone, all the time, every time? Alas it does not.
But there is evidence, in form of many people's actual experiences, to show that it surely can happen.
But my first thing was jujitsu and then judo.My first reaction in self defense is hands up and tai sabaki.
Then move in and take down.It affects my karate such that the defense I did use when it happened was that type of karate defense that squared with the jiujitsu and judo.
Worked.Yes, I do kata that do that, from Shorin ryu. But I do others that do not, and I have never ever used a technique from them in actual self defense.Though I practiced them more.
Make of it what you will, but I tend to think early programming does tke precedence.
Regards,
John
