For You Doctors

Collin Warder · Post by **Collin Warder** » Sun Oct 10, 1999 3:06 am

Just got back from having 3 peices of my femur removed from my knee (4 year old kempo injury). Anyhow, I think I'm leaking spinal fluid after my spinal anesthesia. Now I have a WICKED headache that won't subside, though fluids help. Any suggestions to keep me from going back in and getting a blood patch?

-Collin

David Elkins · Post by **David Elkins** » Sun Oct 10, 1999 5:02 am

Collin,

Call your health care provider ASAP
Good luck!!!

David

Collin Warder · Post by **Collin Warder** » Sun Oct 10, 1999 6:05 pm

Thanks for the anatomy review JD

I spoke with the anasthesiologist yesterday and she suggested I wait a bit more and load on the fluids and caffeine. I suppose I will go back in as it persists. JD, is there a possibility that the patch could introduce a foriegn element to the sterile environment ie. pathogen...that surrounds the column, or would the pressure differential negate that risk?

BTW, I think this is a relevant topic for all those who lurk these forums as "spinals" are pretty common with invasive procedures involving the lower body, and the MA's can wreak havoc on the knees and ankles.

96hrs. and ticking...

-Collin

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Oct 10, 1999 10:29 pm

JD-san,
While talking to a cardiologist recently, in connection with one of my cases, I mentioned the Uechi-breathing system!
He said that when holding your breath and strain during a powerful thrusting/pushing/pulling motion, you slow the blood flow to the heart!
When breath is released at the end of the thrust/effort, blood pressure suddenly rebounds and becomes significantly elevated, which can create a dangerous heart overload!
Also what would we tell our students to practice, breathing wise, when pounding the heavy bag repeatedly? I have never seen a student in great shape be able to stay true to the Uechi breathing concept during a heavy workout with the bag!
What do your fellow Physicians think?

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Van Canna

David Elkins · Post by **David Elkins** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 1:47 am

Van Sensei,

Thank you for post re: Uechi breathing. It is very comforting when you feel it's only your lack of skill that prevents you from doing something well that never made a whole lot of sense to begin with. Breath....ah, much better!

still workin' at it,

David

Post by **gmattson** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 1:50 pm

Sanchin breathing. . . ah yes, what the hell is it anyway?

Anyone who has taken a class with me since 1975 should know my take on the subject. Holding one's breath or linking breathing with body movement isn't part of the equation.

Using what I call Sanchin breathing requires at least a year of careful and accurate practice to be considered useful.

Practicing correct Sanchin breathing may help you breath under stress! Practicing no breathing method will insure that you won't breath at all under stress! One must be disciplined in order to be free!

Check out VidMag 17 for more on the subject.

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GEM

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 2:17 pm

I am not a "real" doctor. I am only the fake kind.... a Ph.D. ... trained in systems physiology..... specializing in cardiopulmonary physiology. I only spent 10 years after my bachelors....

I would be happy to refer you, Van, to one of my former colleagues (a cardiologist) that I did years of research with and with whom I published 25 or so articles. He will tell you that many cardiologists don't know squat outside their area of experise, and most never do research. In fact he was more inflammatory than that at conferences. I've seen him call people "idiots" when asked stupid questions, and get away with it. And believe me, there are some really stupid cardiologists. We have the data here to prove it. Pray you have one of the better ones.

sigh

My mentor and I have a saying here. An expert is someone from out of town with slides. Somehow people pay more attention when an outsider says something. Long ago George posted a piece I wrote about sanchin breathing. It's in the article section. I have the qualifications to write such a piece. J.D. and I have discussed this breathing thing repeatedly after observing the rantings from Morris' page.

Yes, there is a wrong way to breathe that is less desireable. Yes, Elvis died on the toilet. But most of us eliminate without consequence every day (and most of us don't live recklessly like Elvis and trash our bodies). Yes, most eliminate without consequenc and often...except for some I can think of now (none in the present company). And the net consequence of athletic activities of most kinds that involve various types of breathing is to improve cardiovascular health. The latest craziness I've heard lately is an attempt to link "heading" a ball in soccer with reduced I.Q. People seem to forget that athletes often collide on the field and get concussions. Somehow that's supposed to be ignored...

Now to the specific comment.... Uechiryu is a style of open-handed techniques. You do not need to make a maximal, whole body effort when striking with a shoken. If you do, you'll probably break your finger. BUT...if you hit as hard as you can with a seiken fist on a heavy bag, you will likely maximize your power (and avoid a transient "blip" of your blood pressure) by letting a little air out when you hit. In fact, maximal efforts are probably best done with a kiai. If you want more detail, read the article I wrote.

Regardless, most people do just fine in spite of and not because of their breathing method.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 3:13 pm

Collin

I remember the pain very well. I had it after my knee operation. Twenty-five years later, I vividly remember how I wanted to flee my own body. I was so miserable and whiney, my fraternity brothers threatened to send me back to the hospital so they didn't have to listen to me. The painkillers just made me delerious.

I'm surprised that the incidence of this is as low as J.D. suggested. One percent?? Are you sure, good doctor? I was told it was far more common. Anyhow, I was told that it was self-correcting in a week. In my case, that turned out to be true.

Good luck, and you have my deepest sympathy.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 3:51 pm

Interesting topic no matter how many times it is brought up. Thanks for the informative responses!

But a few questions:

1] Uechi breathing: I have heard so many definitions of it that it can be mind-boggling!
I remember being told by any of the Okinawan masters I ever asked this question from, that breathing should be natural [breath as you need without any particular pattern or rhythm] except when thrusting! [Yonamine sensei- in particular]
Mark Breslford has come forth on this forum to pass on Master Uechi’s views along the same lines! [Mark could you help us out with more information on this—your experiences training under Master Uechi for so long and your observations of the way he would breathe under powerful performance would be valuable for us to understand]!

2] Bill “Uechi Ryu is a style of open-handed techniques. You do not need to make a maximal, whole body effort when striking with a shoken”

Maybe so, but why does a master like Nakahodo-sensei explode his shokens and his kata in general like hand grenades? How about the explosive kata of Shinjio-sensei or Nakamatsu-sensei?

And what about the regression to autonomic response during a fight? Like your body will not allow you to make less than maximal body effort in most instances! And your limbic system will take over your breathing mechanism?

Good discussion, let’s explore further by walking into the midst of a deadly confrontation before arguing the points!

How many people do we know who have survived something awful and can tells us about how they responded with power and breath!

And lets explore the argument that if we breathe out as we strike we are creating a weakness to the enemy!
Lets define this weakness, and give examples of this in the fast furious few exchanges that decide the fight in short moments!

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 10-11-99).]

Tim Ahearn · Post by **Tim Ahearn** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 6:41 pm

I must admit that I too am a little confused about Sanchin breathing.

I tend to buy the argument that Sanchin breathing is not dangerous, at least in the way I have been taught. The concern is a temporary rise in blood pressure associated with (maximal) effort and a valsalva maneuver. As I understand it, there are no valsalva maneuvers in Sanchin--if there are then I am perform valsalva maneuvers throughout the day as I breath naturally.

But... I tend to agree with Van on this maximal effort thing. I perform the movements in my kata as powerfully as I can. I do not think "This is a shoken, no need to hit hard with this one." It's true that I will target a shoken carefully. For now I will not throw it to particularly hard areas of the body. Maybe in some years that will change. I will throw it instead, say, to the neck. But I will throw it as hard as I can to the neck. It may be targeted but it is still thrown with power and maximal effort.

As for the protection offered by Sanchin breating... It is true that complete exhales leave you vulnerable. And I have seen sparring matches where people have been breathing with loud, labored, and deep breathes and I have seen these people get hit in the stomach and have to sit down for minutes. But this is simply wild, uncontrolled breathing and is not necessarily a argument for Sanchin breathing. You do not completely exhaust your breath on kiais, nor do you do so when bench pressing a heavy weight. Doing so would indeed be a mistake. It just seems to me that one can exhale with a movement, not exhaust your breath, maintain a good stomach and generally not be vulnerable. And the benifit is added power.

My question really is what is the benifit of Sanchin breathing. It protects you ... OK It rythmic performanc in Sanchin helps with mushin ... OK. What else?

Tim

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 6:55 pm

J.D.

Fair enough. Let me ask it this way. What is the reported incidence of headaches and/or nausea after spinal block?

Tim

Depends on whether you are talking about the Goju or the Uechi method.

* The value of the Goju method of breathing is that it strengthens the intercostal muscles and the diaphram. I do not know of any other method that does that, save the side benefit of breathing with normal exercise like weight lifting. The Goju method also causes a pumping of the blood through the body. It's a cleansing type of activity. Much the same can be achieved by doing a few deep breaths (one of the exercises in our hojoundo). The mechanisms for this are both basic and physical (effect of alternating + and - intercostal pressure on vena cava) as well as more complex phenomena (Starling law of the heart, Bainbridge reflex).

* Other than what you mentioned, I do not believe there is a value of the Uechi sanchin breathing isolated from the kata. It's the way you integrate it with movement that creates value, much in the way that foot movement integrated with attacks creates value for the foot movement. The goal is to optimize the attack system, given a set of principles under which we want to operate. FWIW, IMO.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-11-99).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 8:02 pm

Van san

Just in case you wondered, I am not an adherent of the never school when it comes to breathing (or a lot of other things for that matter). I believe that there's a time to breathe with the technique, and a time to decouple the breathing from the technique. But that's my belief system, and it comes from training with several methods of breathing across several martial arts and other physical activities (weight training, swimming, running, baseball, etc).

Another reason - I believe - to learn to decouple the breathing from the technique is so that one can throw a flurry. If you are talking about an ippon, well then O.K. I think you want to let it all hang out and kiai. But when you consider the "glare in the eyes with fast hands" philosophy of pangainoon, well then you need to rethink this whole breathing thing. Try doing single punches. You can breathe with the punch, or separate the breath from the punch. Chances are you want to breathe with it if you are employing a seiken fist - it feels stronger. But try doing double punches, triple punches, a block and three punches, etc. As soon as you are talking about lightning-fast combinations, linking the breath to technique is like putting a ball and chain on a sprinter. Try it; you'll see what I mean.

There's a time to breathe and a time to pause. A time to strain and a time to relax. A time to flurry and a time to explode. A time for synchrony and a time for asynchrony (no metre puns intended).

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-11-99).]

Tim Ahearn · Post by **Tim Ahearn** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 8:24 pm

Bill,

Thanks for your reply.

I like the Uechi Kanei quote: Keep your breathing circular so that at no time will you be weak. That way you can perform at any moment. This makes sense to me and is often how I feel when I'm sparring well. The time in a match which is not an attack sequence I feel ready to pounce at any split second. But when I commit and really go after someone, I couldn't tell you much of anything about my breathing, or technique, or anything for that matter besides the intent to 'get' the other person.

Now what would happen in a 'real' situation? Is there the need to be able 'to perform at any moment' in a situation that goes down and is very well decided in seconds? There is no positioning, feinting, etc. The thing just happens and is over. Where does breathing fit in in the middle of confrontation? Breath control might make sense when you realize a confrontation is going down, if there is such a realization and such time. But is it possible to control breathing in the heat of battle? Can the breathing be internalized and become second nature, not somthing with is turned of and on consciously before and after kata or a match.

You also wrote: It's the way you integrate it with movement that creates value, much in the way that foot movement integrated with attacks creates value for the foot movement. Can you elaborate further on this idea. It makes perfect sense to me in terms of foot work. Can you give concrete examples in terms of breathing?

--Tim

[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited 10-11-99).]

Tim Ahearn · Post by **Tim Ahearn** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 8:25 pm

Oops. Double posting.

[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited 10-11-99).]

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 9:44 pm

Bill you wrote:
“I believe that there's a time to breathe with the technique, and a time to decouple the breathing from the technique. But that's my belief system, and it comes from training with several methods of breathing across several martial arts and other physical activities (weight training, swimming, running, baseball, etc).”

Tim you wrote:
“I do not think "This is a shoken, no need to hit hard with this one." It's true that I will target a shoken carefully. For now I will not throw it to particularly hard areas of the body. Maybe in some years that will change. I will throw it instead, say, to the neck. But I will throw it as hard as I can to the neck. It may be targeted but it is still thrown with power and maximal effort.” [very good observation]

Bill: --“ I believe - to learn to decouple the breathing from the technique is so that one can throw a flurry. If you are talking about an ippon, well then O.K. I think you want to let it all hang out and kiai. But when you consider the "glare in the eyes with fast hands" philosophy of pangainoon, well then you need to rethink this whole breathing thing”

So that we are clear on this, I follow the so called “Uechi- method” of breathing for most of my kata movements but combine a partial forceful sharp exhale in a select few! I said “partial” not full exhale as in Goju breathing!

So I believe we are on the same wavelength!

Bill: “I have a few films of Okinawans breaking their fingers (rather than the board) trying to demonstrate a board break with a nukite. That's like trying to use a scalpel as a pick axe.”

Agreeed! That is pretty stupid! I recall some of the Okinawans tell me that a nukite should always be aimed at a soft target, such as the throat [that is why if you continue to program a nukite to the ribs, it will never emerge in a real fight. Your brain will refuse to let you do it, as it knows you will break your fingers]!
This doesn’t mean that you should throw your nukite at reduced speed and power to the throat; the warp speed of the thrust will allow the stiff Sanchin hand -fingers to “penetrate,” create a cavity trauma into the neck much like a straw blown by a hurricane will go through a wooden door!

Bill: “Have you seen Nakahodo-sensei's forearms? I have personally witnessed him doing pushups on his shokens”
We all know about Nakahodo sensei’s powerful body and forearms. But if he subscribed to the theory that the shoken should be used as a scalpel, I am sure he could modify his power output in the strikes, which he does not!

I don’t see a problem using the shoken to the body or the rib cage even as protected by heavy jacket/clothing [as opposed to the nukite] although the throat is a much better target! Bob Campbell showed me some enchanting variations!

Tim Ahern sums it best: “You do not completely exhaust your breath on kiais, nor do you do so when bench pressing a heavy weight. Doing so would indeed be a mistake. It just seems to me that one can exhale with a movement, not exhaust your breath, maintain a good stomach, and generally not be vulnerable. And the benefit is added power.”

That is the method that I prefer in at least 25% of my katas, which also seems to be more natural to me!

I also wrote” “And what about the regression to autonomic response during a fight? Like your body will not allow you to make less than maximal body effort in most instances! And your limbic system will take over your breathing mechanism?”
That is, as you know, what will happen under the chemical cocktail to most of us!

I would like an answer to this from anyone as to how we, as Uechi practitioners, are immune to those physiological changes under stress and why our bodies and brains will allow us to perform along the Uechi-method of breathing and reduced power output in “scalpel” strikes? Are we really able to circumvent the primal response? I have heard so many teachers get on the podium assuring students that their particular method/style will do that but will not get very specific as to how that would work!

I believe this discussion was once centered around the feasibility of “ light force knockouts” which we had with Pantazi-sensei; i.e., would our bodies let us do them under the surge of gross motor power controlling our movements as part of the “ adrenal dump” as an enraged hulk charges like a water buffalo!

Pantazi-san feel free to enter the arena!

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Van Canna