Was taken by a student to help her learn Seichin
Hope she will not copy exactly
Fingers always but is my Seichin
Moderator: Available
Fingers always but is my Seichin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRnddWo1RW8
Was taken by a student to help her learn Seichin
Hope she will not copy exactly
Was taken by a student to help her learn Seichin
Hope she will not copy exactly
Léo
Opps
Ahhh...My video was set tp private, now this should work.cdoucet wrote:"This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender's friend request."
Thats what I get when I try to watch the Video.
Chris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRnddWo1RW8
Léo
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Hey!
Watched some on my 56K dialup, will watch more tomorrow on work hi-speed.
I love Seichin Kata, one of my favourites.
"Hard to learn, easy to forget", as a Shodan pointed out.
Definitely an enigmatic Kata, especially where it appears in the training path at exactly the right time! (To prepare you for Seisan...and beyond...)
Thanks for sharing, I might post further after viewing on hi-speed, but no negs from me!
~N~
Watched some on my 56K dialup, will watch more tomorrow on work hi-speed.
I love Seichin Kata, one of my favourites.
"Hard to learn, easy to forget", as a Shodan pointed out.
Definitely an enigmatic Kata, especially where it appears in the training path at exactly the right time! (To prepare you for Seisan...and beyond...)
Thanks for sharing, I might post further after viewing on hi-speed, but no negs from me!
~N~
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
Thanks Bill. I`m game for discussion on this thread. This is not how I perform it today as my back has improved greatly since this clip was shot.Bill Glasheen wrote:Interesting...
Seichin is one of my favorite Uechi kata. It is IMO the best of the bridge kata.
This is a very "clean" performance of the kata. Not a lot to complain about.
I do a number of aspects of that kata differently. If you want, we can discuss them here or elsewhere.
- Bill
My favorite bridge kata as so much can be "hidden" in it`s movements. Been told it`s a "girly kata" lacking ability to produce "real power"...Those individuals haven`t explored it.
Your input will be very welcomed Neil, negative or positive all good as this took place in past anyway...I hope I`m still very far from being happy with my kata(s) because that is what drives me to put on my Gi.Thanks for sharing, I might post further after viewing on hi-speed, but no negs from me!
That can`t be goodHey wow Cool , thanks Leo , that actually reminded me in ways a lot of Lairds kata ..
Léo
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Stryke
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Leo
Here are my thoughts.
Seichin is a cross between Seisan and Sanseiryu. Most people who practice the Uechi style never get beyond Seisan in their understanding of martial arts. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can be a great fighter with only Seisan under your belt. However Sanseiryu is a different animal. The parts that the Neanderthals don't get about Seichin are the Sanseiryu-derived elements. These are different in a number of ways.
First, I like your front kicks - especially the one just before crane on a rock. You throw that leg out with core muscle movement. Fantastic!
On the "grab and carry" move, I do that with different timing. Takamiyagi worked with me quite a bit through a whole week on Thompson Island a few decades ago. He spoke about what I like to call "dynamic range" in a kata. Basically for a move like that, you are moving a big mass, right? You aren't throwing your arms or legs through the air to hit something, right? So I like to do this move a bit slower, and use internal resistance to movement (dynamic tension) to simulate the external resistance to motion (the weight of a man your size). Your move isn't "ridiculous" like the way I see some people do the same move in Seisan in lightning speed fashion. But I prefer to do it a bit slower with internal tension and an audible inhale/exhale breath.
While doing this movement a bit slower, you can work on the proper tension in the shoken grabs and wrist flexions. When you see someone do that movement right, the strength in the grabs and twists are downright scary. Picture yourself grabbing flesh under the armpits or on the side, and twisting it so ruthlessly that your load is lightened because the BG is up on his tippy toes - a reflex you absolutely intend to elicit to make the carry easier to do. It is the poison on the end of your spear in that movement.
As for the crane on the rock movement... I personally prefer to delay the movement of the knee until the arms have extended all the way out. I like to do this smoothly as you are doing it. But not adding this delay causes you to miss out on some synergy of movement within your body. Ideally you get a push-pull action where the whole is much greater than the sum. If you do the timing of the movements wrong, you actually can be causing a cancelling of power. Picture a hurricane moving forward. You want to be like the leading edge where you get speed of rotation plus speed of storm movement, and not like the lagging edge where you get speed of rotation minus speed of storm movement.
As for hawk chases sparrow... This is my favorite movement in the kata. After years of experimenting with its many applications, I finally sat down with Jim Thompson on this and asked his opinion on how to capture all those applications in one kata movement. Jim's a great martial artist, and worked in Kanei Uechi's dojo for a decade.
Basically Jim had one comment "Keep your elbows in Sanchin." After that, it's up to you in terms of how you embellish the movement.
In your case, watch the upper arm. Watch how you wind it up, and throw that upper elbow out of Sanchin. Many people do that. I have removed that tendency from my form. Get it right here, and the movement in Sanseiryu will be right.
Once you've done that, you can work on putting the energy of the turns into that movement. Basically the move starts in the stance before that move, and you flow through the turn into the movement. It takes a LOT of practice to get this right. But again.... Play with it in Seichin. Get it right there, and your Sanseiryu move will look great (done after a 90-degree CCW turn). It's difficult to describe here but... Maybe one day we'll meet up.
On the eye strikes... You do the movement well. I happen to add in a scoop before the snapping movement. It flows well. Not only that, but it sets the person up for the technique.
FWIW... There's a move removed from Itokazu's original Seichin kata. Basically after you do the circles and kicks to each diagonal in the beginning, you add in another big circle with a turn. That has some really, really nasty applications to it. Picture folding the BG over with a grab and kick. Then imagine what would happen to that doubled-over person if you circled your arm around (in bad breath range) and then snapped a 90-degree turn.
So much for a girlie kata...
- Bill
Here are my thoughts.
I'm totally with you here.Leo wrote:
My favorite bridge kata as so much can be "hidden" in it`s movements. Been told it`s a "girly kata" lacking ability to produce "real power"...Those individuals haven`t explored it.
Seichin is a cross between Seisan and Sanseiryu. Most people who practice the Uechi style never get beyond Seisan in their understanding of martial arts. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can be a great fighter with only Seisan under your belt. However Sanseiryu is a different animal. The parts that the Neanderthals don't get about Seichin are the Sanseiryu-derived elements. These are different in a number of ways.
- The power generation is very different. Most people never learn the "mochi" (elasticity) element of Uechi Ryu. But when the likes of Gushi and Shinjo are telling Americans they don't "get" that part of Sanseiryu, I say it's time to pause and reconsider.
- The applications of many movements such as hawk chases sparrow are so many that most people don't even recognize them when they see them. But when you can take one move and reinforce the mechanics of a dozen or more applications, that's absolutely brilliant choreography.
- Seichin teaches power through flow. The "real power" starts not in the movement that the Neanderthals call "girlie moves", but rather in the stance just before it. If you never learn to generate energy through movement and transfer it to a technique, you'll never "get" this and also miss out on a lot of important martial principles.
First, I like your front kicks - especially the one just before crane on a rock. You throw that leg out with core muscle movement. Fantastic!
On the "grab and carry" move, I do that with different timing. Takamiyagi worked with me quite a bit through a whole week on Thompson Island a few decades ago. He spoke about what I like to call "dynamic range" in a kata. Basically for a move like that, you are moving a big mass, right? You aren't throwing your arms or legs through the air to hit something, right? So I like to do this move a bit slower, and use internal resistance to movement (dynamic tension) to simulate the external resistance to motion (the weight of a man your size). Your move isn't "ridiculous" like the way I see some people do the same move in Seisan in lightning speed fashion. But I prefer to do it a bit slower with internal tension and an audible inhale/exhale breath.
While doing this movement a bit slower, you can work on the proper tension in the shoken grabs and wrist flexions. When you see someone do that movement right, the strength in the grabs and twists are downright scary. Picture yourself grabbing flesh under the armpits or on the side, and twisting it so ruthlessly that your load is lightened because the BG is up on his tippy toes - a reflex you absolutely intend to elicit to make the carry easier to do. It is the poison on the end of your spear in that movement.
As for the crane on the rock movement... I personally prefer to delay the movement of the knee until the arms have extended all the way out. I like to do this smoothly as you are doing it. But not adding this delay causes you to miss out on some synergy of movement within your body. Ideally you get a push-pull action where the whole is much greater than the sum. If you do the timing of the movements wrong, you actually can be causing a cancelling of power. Picture a hurricane moving forward. You want to be like the leading edge where you get speed of rotation plus speed of storm movement, and not like the lagging edge where you get speed of rotation minus speed of storm movement.
As for hawk chases sparrow... This is my favorite movement in the kata. After years of experimenting with its many applications, I finally sat down with Jim Thompson on this and asked his opinion on how to capture all those applications in one kata movement. Jim's a great martial artist, and worked in Kanei Uechi's dojo for a decade.
Basically Jim had one comment "Keep your elbows in Sanchin." After that, it's up to you in terms of how you embellish the movement.
In your case, watch the upper arm. Watch how you wind it up, and throw that upper elbow out of Sanchin. Many people do that. I have removed that tendency from my form. Get it right here, and the movement in Sanseiryu will be right.
Once you've done that, you can work on putting the energy of the turns into that movement. Basically the move starts in the stance before that move, and you flow through the turn into the movement. It takes a LOT of practice to get this right. But again.... Play with it in Seichin. Get it right there, and your Sanseiryu move will look great (done after a 90-degree CCW turn). It's difficult to describe here but... Maybe one day we'll meet up.
On the eye strikes... You do the movement well. I happen to add in a scoop before the snapping movement. It flows well. Not only that, but it sets the person up for the technique.
FWIW... There's a move removed from Itokazu's original Seichin kata. Basically after you do the circles and kicks to each diagonal in the beginning, you add in another big circle with a turn. That has some really, really nasty applications to it. Picture folding the BG over with a grab and kick. Then imagine what would happen to that doubled-over person if you circled your arm around (in bad breath range) and then snapped a 90-degree turn.
So much for a girlie kata...
- Bill
Bill,
On the missing movement, it goes left wauke, right kick, left wauke while doing the turn, correct? You and Dana have stated that you've had to add an additional move after doing the sequence on the right side, what was the move. Did it have something to do with the wrist movements?
On the missing movement, it goes left wauke, right kick, left wauke while doing the turn, correct? You and Dana have stated that you've had to add an additional move after doing the sequence on the right side, what was the move. Did it have something to do with the wrist movements?
I was dreaming of the past...
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Correct. Then of course you repeat (in mirror image) towards the other diagonal.Mike wrote:
it goes left wauke, right kick, left wauke while doing the turn, correct?
Yes, you throw in one additional step and wrist movement. Why? Because you are back to facing the first diagonal after the second circle and 90-degree turn. You need a way to switch stances. So you just add in one additional step and wrist move. No problem there, as our kata are replete with triple movements.Mike wrote:
Dana have stated that you've had to add an additional move after doing the sequence on the right side, what was the move. Did it have something to do with the wrist movements?
One more thing... I learned a timing thing from George that I really like. On the first step and wrist, he separates the two movements. On the second, he combines them. Why??? Well... Note I don't say wrist BLOCKS. I say wrist MOVEMENTS. They can be either a block or a strike. Consider the first to be an inside block, and the second to be a strike to the triple warmer after grabbing and stepping inside the BG's defenses. That's very Chinese, after all. And it follows an interpretation pattern I've similarly seen in Okinawan/Japanese karate where knife-hand movements (Blocks??? Attacks???) are done to two different diagonals. One attacks the biceps tendon of a drunk's looping punch, and the second comes in to take the person out via an attack to the triple warmer. Rather than thinking of responding to 2 different BGs, you're actually responding to a single at two different angles.
So... Just do the first two as separate movements, and the third as a combined step and wrist movement. Then it's all there.
- Bill
Tired from class tonight but still thinking Uechi
Makes sense...I tried it tonight and liked the feel.On the "grab and carry" move, I do that with different timing. Takamiyagi worked with me quite a bit through a whole week on Thompson Island a few decades ago. He spoke about what I like to call "dynamic range" in a kata. Basically for a move like that, you are moving a big mass, right? You aren't throwing your arms or legs through the air to hit something, right? So I like to do this move a bit slower, and use internal resistance to movement (dynamic tension) to simulate the external resistance to motion (the weight of a man your size). Your move isn't "ridiculous" like the way I see some people do the same move in Seisan in lightning speed fashion. But I prefer to do it a bit slower with internal tension and an audible inhale/exhale breath.
Thanks, I have discovered it creates a fair amount of distress when it finds a target which took me by surprise. I used to hate the front kick but when I began understanding the core is the delivery system not the leg etc. I got real excited about our Uechi.You throw that leg out with core muscle movement. Fantastic!
Hurricane analogy is a good one, analogy`s deliver the message effectively to this guy...Visual person. Well understood.As for the crane on the rock movement... I personally prefer to delay the movement of the knee until the arms have extended all the way out. I like to do this smoothly as you are doing it. But not adding this delay causes you to miss out on some synergy of movement within your body. Ideally you get a push-pull action where the whole is much greater than the sum. If you do the timing of the movements wrong, you actually can be causing a cancelling of power. Picture a hurricane moving forward. You want to be like the leading edge where you get speed of rotation plus speed of storm movement, and not like the lagging edge where you get speed of rotation minus speed of storm movement.
In your case, watch the upper arm. Watch how you wind it up, and throw that upper elbow out of Sanchin. Many people do that. I have removed that tendency from my form. Get it right here, and the movement in Sanseiryu will be right.
Caught in the act by Bill... And photo last year! Cameras don`t lie
Elbows out but I enjoyed kata that Tournament even though I was all over the place.
I`m too old to be embarrassed...Heck have fun until ya gotta be mean.
It`s up to me to attend Summer Camp again, I discovered in the Beverly Mass camp that so much could be learned from even “cafeteria workouts”Maybe one day we'll meet up.
I trust you know your input will be put into practice, certainly will have influence on my form. Hoping to return some insights of my own.
Léo
seichin
Could someone explain which moves are "crane on the rock", "grab and carry" and "hawk chases sparrow"? I've done this kata for 15 years an find it to be one of the most fun and thought provoking in the system. I have always heard terms like knee strike, fishtail block, crane block etc. so I am a little confused as to what you are describing
Having trouble with this one, was the 90-degree turn part of his sequence or a possible in application?There's a move removed from Itokazu's original Seichin kata. Basically after you do the circles and kicks to each diagonal in the beginning, you add in another big circle with a turn. That has some really, really nasty applications to it. Picture folding the BG over with a grab and kick. Then imagine what would happen to that doubled-over person if you circled your arm around (in bad breath range) and then snapped a 90-degree turn.
Léo
