Just stumbled on this video. These guys are
amazing.
Men of steel
Men of Steel
Moderator: Available
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
These guys are...
- Bill
- Narahiro Shinjo doing jar (kami) training in Sanchin
- Kiyohide Shinjo testing Narahiro Shinjo's Sanchin
- Kiyohide Shinjo demonstrating the Kenyukai yakusoku kumite, and some sparring exercises
- Toyama Sensei doing the first part of Sanseiryu (Sandairyu) - complete with some of the old-school theatrics.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ahem...chef wrote:
Do any of you work with the jars full of sand? Any suggestions for such conditioning?
I have probably a half dozen pairs of jars in my basement, probably twice the size that Narahiro is working with here. As I correctly predicted, Shelly Dunn's effort to have them custom-made didn't have such a long production run. I'm thinking they may be worth something these days...
And FWIW, just this morning I found some B&W photos that YOU took of me for Shelly's publicity shots. Remember?
Shelly had copies of a number of Uechika posing with his jars in his photo album at camp, and a couple of teenie boppers stole (copies of) my photos from him. Funniest thing I've ever had happen to me.
- Bill
-
benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
) Bill said something that makes nothing but sense.-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I can answer that...
It's true that Kanbun and Shushiwa would have hit the weight room. They did their own version of weight training with their tools of the day. And many "traditional" Okinawan karate dojos have used car parts sitting around (axles, tires, etc.) for their own makeshift weight and training room.
It is true that you can use dumbbells to do the "jar" training. Sort of...
But...
There's nothing quite like the lip on the jars, and what jar training does. Bear with me for a bit.
The problem with using dumbbells - and some of my students such as Bruce Hirabayashi do that - is that it doesn't have the lip that the jars have. Thus unless you have very unusual dumbbells, you're either going to be on your finger PRINTS with hyperextended distal joints (not transferable to Uechi) or you'll be compressing your distal finger joints to grab on to them. You need just enough lip so your last knuckle on each finger is a little flexed, and HANGING onto the lip. And that lip is necessary to form the classic boshiken thumb so that the exercise transfers to the way you do Uechi karate.
I do finger-to-wrist curls and reverse-with-thumb wrist curls. They are excellent exercises, and they "woke my hands up" to Uechi karate hand mechanics. They also PULL the finger joints.
This is key. You can do lots of neat finger and thumb exercises. But when it comes to the two most distal joints in the fingers and the distal joint on the thumb, you're playing with fire if you train them wrong. Expect osteoarthritis at an older age if you start putting too much wear and tear on the articular cartilage of those joints.
Rock climbers know not to do too much of a certain type of "crimping." They hang by their fingers all the time. But in their training, they try not to do so in a way that compresses the distal joints.
Want to see something a bit scary? Other than his face, look at Keith Richard's fingers. The knuckles are absolutely mangled.
Yes, a lifetime of "hard living" didn't help. But all those years pushing on the finger tips - drug aided - took their toll.
The nice thing about kami training is that the weight of the jars pulls on ALL the joints of your fingers as you're gripping on the jar lips, thus preventing any compression of the articular cartilage surfaces on the distal finger joints. The same is true for my finger-to-wrist curls. The weight is pulling on the fingers, so the joints surfaces aren't being smashed together.
The "Uechi karate pushup" only compresses the proximal thumb, index, and middle finger joints. These joints are not prone to osteoarthritis.
I will on occasion get up on my boshiken and finger tips (like a pushup) just to wake them up. But I don't do it too much. I can feel the soreness in those distal finger joints creeping in pretty quickly.
Anyhow, I like the jar training, and I like my finger-to-wrist curls and reverse-with-thumb wrist curls. Both are good. The jars are essentially isometric training, and the curls are isotonic. Variety helps in the weight room. The human body tends to get lazy with training, and will try over time to do the same exercise with the least number of muscle fibers. That's why you need variety, and why you need to work in cycles. Variety also prevents boredom, and reduces the risk of repetitive motion injuries.
And finally... Don't make these exercises the core of your training program. If you're a serious Uechi athlete, the core exercises should be things like the classic Olympic lifts, squats, bench, seated rows, etc. They involve working all the muscles in synergy, thus making the work highly transferable to your karate. Multiple muscle group exercises also shock the body more, thus giving you more bang for your buck. And they teach you coordination that you can use elsewhere.
And don't discount the work you get with your hands doing classic Olympic lifts, or other classics like deadlifts. Just don't use the wrist wraps!!! You'll be cheating yourself out of your Uechi extremities.
- Bill
It's true that Kanbun and Shushiwa would have hit the weight room. They did their own version of weight training with their tools of the day. And many "traditional" Okinawan karate dojos have used car parts sitting around (axles, tires, etc.) for their own makeshift weight and training room.
It is true that you can use dumbbells to do the "jar" training. Sort of...
But...
There's nothing quite like the lip on the jars, and what jar training does. Bear with me for a bit.
The problem with using dumbbells - and some of my students such as Bruce Hirabayashi do that - is that it doesn't have the lip that the jars have. Thus unless you have very unusual dumbbells, you're either going to be on your finger PRINTS with hyperextended distal joints (not transferable to Uechi) or you'll be compressing your distal finger joints to grab on to them. You need just enough lip so your last knuckle on each finger is a little flexed, and HANGING onto the lip. And that lip is necessary to form the classic boshiken thumb so that the exercise transfers to the way you do Uechi karate.
I do finger-to-wrist curls and reverse-with-thumb wrist curls. They are excellent exercises, and they "woke my hands up" to Uechi karate hand mechanics. They also PULL the finger joints.
This is key. You can do lots of neat finger and thumb exercises. But when it comes to the two most distal joints in the fingers and the distal joint on the thumb, you're playing with fire if you train them wrong. Expect osteoarthritis at an older age if you start putting too much wear and tear on the articular cartilage of those joints.
Rock climbers know not to do too much of a certain type of "crimping." They hang by their fingers all the time. But in their training, they try not to do so in a way that compresses the distal joints.
Want to see something a bit scary? Other than his face, look at Keith Richard's fingers. The knuckles are absolutely mangled.
Yes, a lifetime of "hard living" didn't help. But all those years pushing on the finger tips - drug aided - took their toll.
The nice thing about kami training is that the weight of the jars pulls on ALL the joints of your fingers as you're gripping on the jar lips, thus preventing any compression of the articular cartilage surfaces on the distal finger joints. The same is true for my finger-to-wrist curls. The weight is pulling on the fingers, so the joints surfaces aren't being smashed together.
The "Uechi karate pushup" only compresses the proximal thumb, index, and middle finger joints. These joints are not prone to osteoarthritis.
I will on occasion get up on my boshiken and finger tips (like a pushup) just to wake them up. But I don't do it too much. I can feel the soreness in those distal finger joints creeping in pretty quickly.
Anyhow, I like the jar training, and I like my finger-to-wrist curls and reverse-with-thumb wrist curls. Both are good. The jars are essentially isometric training, and the curls are isotonic. Variety helps in the weight room. The human body tends to get lazy with training, and will try over time to do the same exercise with the least number of muscle fibers. That's why you need variety, and why you need to work in cycles. Variety also prevents boredom, and reduces the risk of repetitive motion injuries.
And finally... Don't make these exercises the core of your training program. If you're a serious Uechi athlete, the core exercises should be things like the classic Olympic lifts, squats, bench, seated rows, etc. They involve working all the muscles in synergy, thus making the work highly transferable to your karate. Multiple muscle group exercises also shock the body more, thus giving you more bang for your buck. And they teach you coordination that you can use elsewhere.
And don't discount the work you get with your hands doing classic Olympic lifts, or other classics like deadlifts. Just don't use the wrist wraps!!! You'll be cheating yourself out of your Uechi extremities.
- Bill
-
jorvik
I wonder if these were training devices in China that were copied. Master Toyama said that he met folks from Funzhou, I believe, who were like him i.e. extremely muscular and cut ( got this from another thread somewhere, if memory serves 
)
but how do you work for this look, and is it to be desired
.certainly being strong and muscular in old age is a bonus.
I like Master Toyama's kata very much........reminded me very much of the Chinese kata method where there is a standard which everyone does at once and the same.......and then there is a sort of personal living kata.which you pull out once in awhile...which is yours 
)but how do you work for this look, and is it to be desired
.certainly being strong and muscular in old age is a bonus.I like Master Toyama's kata very much........reminded me very much of the Chinese kata method where there is a standard which everyone does at once and the same.......and then there is a sort of personal living kata.which you pull out once in awhile
...which is yours -
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I've seen that same look in Shinyu Gushi. Finis origine pendet - the end depends upon the beginning. If you do the dynamic/static tension work in Sanchin, do the jar work, and eat their low calorie diet, you get lean, ripped, and you get big traps from holding onto the jars.
The only problems I see with "the old way" are the following.
1) You get out of it what you put into it. If you're not a particularly energetic or demonstrative person, you don't get much muscular and tendon training from the tension you're not putting in your body. In the weightroom however, the weights don't lie. There's no fooling yourself or others. Either you lift them or you don't.
2) Some folks have problems going from the tension of Sanchin to the elasticity (mochi) required in Sanseiryu. It's a big leap.
3) There are more efficient and balanced ways to train your body today. Those old guys were smart and resourceful. If they had better training equipment and methods, you'd better believe they'd be using it.
Gushi Sensei and I had some fun conversations about training. Even as a senior senior, he's in pretty good shape.
I saw an extreme of that with a Chinese Crane master that George got over from PRC in the mid-eighties. The guy had a "vanilla" version of his crane form that he was teaching everyone. But when he got up to perform, it came out highly stylized, and different every time he did it. It was a sight to behold.
- Bill
The only problems I see with "the old way" are the following.
1) You get out of it what you put into it. If you're not a particularly energetic or demonstrative person, you don't get much muscular and tendon training from the tension you're not putting in your body. In the weightroom however, the weights don't lie. There's no fooling yourself or others. Either you lift them or you don't.
2) Some folks have problems going from the tension of Sanchin to the elasticity (mochi) required in Sanseiryu. It's a big leap.
3) There are more efficient and balanced ways to train your body today. Those old guys were smart and resourceful. If they had better training equipment and methods, you'd better believe they'd be using it.
Gushi Sensei and I had some fun conversations about training. Even as a senior senior, he's in pretty good shape.
That's a good way to go. The only problem is figuring out what the "standard" will be. Nobody wants to agree on that. But it is possible to have somewhat of a dojo or association standard without much problem. This is the sort of thing you expect people to do for their shodan exam. After that, then you want to see some creativity and life.jovik wrote:
I like Master Toyama's kata very much........reminded me very much of the Chinese kata method where there is a standard which everyone does at once and the same.......and then there is a sort of personal living kata.which you pull out once in awhile ...which is yours
I saw an extreme of that with a Chinese Crane master that George got over from PRC in the mid-eighties. The guy had a "vanilla" version of his crane form that he was teaching everyone. But when he got up to perform, it came out highly stylized, and different every time he did it. It was a sight to behold.
- Bill
You can use an adjustable dumbell. Load one side with a number of heavy plates, for example 3 tens and the other side, the side you will grasp, with a five. Grasp the five in the manner that Bill describes, the same way you'd grasp the lip of the jar. You will be carrying essentially a 40 # "jar."
I also agree with the weight training idea. Of course if some of the old timers were starting out today they'd be using the weights and modern training.
Josann
I also agree with the weight training idea. Of course if some of the old timers were starting out today they'd be using the weights and modern training.
Josann
I used to do the same thing (except I grabbed 2.5 lb plates). It gave a decent grip workout. I gave it up though because I never was able to see a benefit to this exercise (except maybe the ability to split apples in your hand?) - there's no drill or dojo situation that requires any serious grip strength, so what's the point of going nuts conditioning it? Just in case it ever occurs to me to crush someone's windpipe or nads, maybe- but in a dangerous situation would I really want to bust out a technique I've never ever used before?You can use an adjustable dumbell. Load one side with a number of heavy plates, for example 3 tens and the other side, the side you will grasp, with a five. Grasp the five in the manner that Bill describes, the same way you'd grasp the lip of the jar. You will be carrying essentially a 40 # "jar."
For that matter I never figured out what the benefit was to having someone punch you in the lats, which hardly seem to be a part of the body in need of conditioning.
Aka Dave Keckich
-
JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
The "jars" offer integration and cultivation of attributes specific to these styles.. They develop the grip power in the hands and fingers, strengthen the ligaments and bones and muscles specific to the structure used in the forms, they teach you to sink the shoulders and CG while strengthening the body..
One Baak Mei guy from China I met said that advanced folks in this style, because of this training, should be able to use their iron grips with the hands to crush the opponent's bridges and more.. He was the only guy that ever made my forearms bleed from a light sparring session...They don't "grab sleeves". This is part of the use of the "grip" developed this way used by a few systems.
How many Uechi schools train with those and how many train to use there hands as crushing bridge weapons in contact fighting?
One Baak Mei guy from China I met said that advanced folks in this style, because of this training, should be able to use their iron grips with the hands to crush the opponent's bridges and more.. He was the only guy that ever made my forearms bleed from a light sparring session...They don't "grab sleeves". This is part of the use of the "grip" developed this way used by a few systems.
How many Uechi schools train with those and how many train to use there hands as crushing bridge weapons in contact fighting?
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
