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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:27 pm 
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My good friend Campbell can use just his pinkie and hurt most people. With full respect to Bob Campbell, it is guys his size that I am talking about.

I am getting away a bit from the intent of my original post, but so be it.

Van came up with an excellent option of cupped hand strike instead of the crane beak strike to the spot behind the collar bone.

As a lot of martial arts techniques, some work better for the little guys and some work better for the bigger guys. Well, just about any technique works better for the big guys.

So, being a little guy I usually practice with having Bob the dummy set at his full 6-3 height. No way I can beak strike the spot behind his collar bone or cupped hand strike him at the same location using the Senseiru movement and trajectory.

Personally I would reserve the cupped hand for striking at the ear. Yes, very effective. Saw that used in several old Pancrase fights.

Sorry to Stryke and other folks, I am a striker because I think striking is the safest and fastest way to end a fight on a street or behind the bar parking lot.

I love palm strikes and I frequently strike Dummy Bob at the temple or cheek area with the lower part of my palm, the area directly above the wrist - and here is where the technique I was going to later demonstrate came from but I will describe it now:

First of all I go for simplicity and movements that do not require accuracy.

Ok, say if I am required for some reason to strike with the last Sanseiru crane beak movement and use the same trajectory as the kata movement (e.g. Can't turn my hand to attack the ear or temple or cheek. Must be downward with the beaked hand), I would use the lower part of my crane beak hand, or basically the cupped hand, to smack down with full force at the collar bone itself, with the intention of dislodging or breaking it.

Try it on Dummy Bob.

Now my "secret" Crane Beak bongai in Sanseiru is out.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:27 pm 
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Ok too summarise , Im sure if we get enough Uechi masters to agree then it must be an ok move

Quote:
Ok, say if I am required for some reason to strike with the last Sanseiru crane beak movement and use the same trajectory as the kata movement (e.g. Can't turn my hand to attack the ear or temple or cheek. Must be downward with the beaked hand), I would use the lower part of my crane beak hand, or basically the cupped hand, to smack down with full force at the collar bone itself, with the intention of dislodging or breaking it.


As I wrote earlier? , were talking about the same thing you've just altered your targeting for being shorter , as would I against a taller opponent. If I was to be pedantic I'd suggest getting over will have more affect to rattling the brain , far more practical in a street fight , but if you cant reach its obvious. Also a hammer fist is probably more traditional to smash the collar bone but makes less difference, I absolutely was referring to the same application of the hand position.

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good post and this isn't meant to be a side track , but how about sliding the strike forward and using the cranesbeak not as the beak but hammering the trapezius with the thumbpad on the neck juncture and using the hook structure of the beak to aim the force around into the primitive brain stem.


As Does Bob via the quote, he may be cupping differently but same thing really..... hes also pointing out options in targeting

Quote:
He uses the same trajectory strike but done with a cupped hand so as to drive a concentrated air pocket along the side of your neck/clavicle or jaw line.


Quote:
Van came up with an excellent option of cupped hand strike instead of the crane beak strike to the spot behind the collar bone.


seems Van agrees as well many options.

Quote:
Sorry to Stryke and other folks, I am a striker because I think striking is the safest and fastest way to end a fight on a street or behind the bar parking lot.


Im missing your implication here , I always mentioned gouging as a follow up/compliment to striking , Im predominantly a striker , if my forum name didn't give that away , however I think one should look at all options/skillsets. I'm getting the vibe you think I'm being adversarial. sometimes striking isn't necessary and pain compliance/restraint is much more valuable

Quote:
Now my "secret" Crane Beak bongai in Sanseiru is out


Nice move , thanks !!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:52 pm 
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When I look at stuff like this I look at it a different way. I look at the target that I'm trying to attack, and I choose this on the basis of experience and also from watching other people training or fighting and what knocks them down. then I look at the "hand " best suited for this purpose.So if I'm targeting the neck or throat area I would use a shuto, I could expand upon this because I used to do Aikido and they use it employing the whole body..so it basically could be a bitch slap or a Shuto.next I would look to see if I needed to set this up or if I was using it as a Killshot, I would practice other stuff that complimented it.and sometimes a punch can lead to a lock or a throw so I would keep this in mind

and sometimes they are set up by a look or a conversation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ3MAdgGwtU


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Stryker, my apology if I had misspoken. I had absolutely no intention on offending anyone at all whatsoever. I am sitting under the sun in Cancun and may be reading stuff a little too fast and hitting my iPad keys too quick.

Again, we are off track from my original post. I used the crane beak strike only as an example of how some instructors interpret kata movements. My point really is that any movement requires accurate aiming will be risky and not effective in a street fight.

Jorvik, I agree with you on using Shuto for neck strikes. I personally would use the Shuto strike to break the collar bone though.

Thank you all for the posts. I could never drink under the sun without getting a headache. The sea is absolutely fabulously blue, and the bikinis are out of the world. Life is beautiful here but my return flight is coming up all too soon.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Enjoy it while you are there :D .........I live in the cold morose north of England.lots of rain clouds, bitter cold and sad faces :(


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:09 pm 
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No need to apologise Henry, just stay on track , you ask for interpretations you got them

I find it quite enlightening how many already use your secret technique, Lots of good work going on.

I guess the Stryker bit is a typo and not booze related :)

As for accuracy and the heat of battle, aim small miss small , this is more about the appropriate weapon.



Hard weapon soft target, soft weapon hard target


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:50 am 
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I've enjoyed this thread. i don't buy into all the preconceived bunkai either Henry. I see kata as body mechanics, movement training, not applications. I to like to from time to time suggest applications but each fight has it's own solution and I don't claim to have any answers.

I find applications in kata from fighting and not from doing kata. I find the connections after the fact. I recognize the movement! Van Sensei mentioned giving oneself permission....for many this is the fight, the moral struggle. I've put that to rest. The mind set to respond must be developed long before it's time to do so! Decisions must be made before the fecal matter has hit the rotating turbine. When your covered in schit it's to late to start.

The motion that has explored the most in this thread is the crane sequence. My take on it is a wee bit different. Most students only focus on the pause the strike.....the end of the formal sequence.

I see the kata sequence as the wauke...(two arms feeding entry). Think most formal bunkai involve a grab. The grab involves off balancing ect. ect. ect. this entails pulling the entry force down and away. So what happens when you intercept and yank the force in this direction.

2 things.


The line of forces offered by the attacker fails to connect.

Your connection and down ward pull off balances the attacker and exposes their throat. (Arm goes down head goes up.)

This is an opportunity!

You can now strike under the chin with the top of your wrist. Up under the jaw chin. The retracting arm the cambering strike this is a ko strike. Most never see cambering as striking because, kata pauses on the strikes. Their are no pauses in fights.

N o exclamation marks in fights.

I use the cranes beak cobra thing as a strike too. But I'm not big on collar bone strikes grabs etc.
I kind of us mine as a cupped palm/ bushien knuckle strike to the brain stem. Not keen on precision
when general drops them.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Great comments, everyone. Thank you all.

Stryke: the extra "r" was bikinis related. Just couldn't concentrate when they are all over the place. Terrible distraction.

Feur: good post.

Some general and my final comments on the subject:

As I always tell my students, everyone should have his own favorite techniques for actual street self defense and well practiced specifically for that purpose before they are needed. You can not rely on an effective technique all of a sudden come out of nowhere, or from your favorite kata.

Should not rely on your killer sparring ability either. Sparring may come into play if the fight gets through the first phase of the usual preemptive attack from either side but one would be wise to practice using palm strikes instead of the typical punches (I mentioned my broken knuckles elsewhere. That punch came out automatically because I was so used to it in sparring. Lesson learned the hard way).

In a real fight you want to minimize risks regardless of your ability. My original post started with the premise or idea to the effect that any technique requires any accuracy or with less than knockout effectiveness will be too risky to use, again if I may repeat, in a real fight.

The technique may be good only if you are comfortable in executing it and believe that it will work, otherwise at the critical moment it won't come out or may not come out the way you hoped, or worse yet, the bg is luckier than you in that fight. Sometimes all it takes is a lucky punch - and don't count on you being the lucky one.

My respect to all,

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:48 pm 
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I think if you look at how styles develop you get some ideas. They may have a very solid base but then they start to get silly, adding irrelevant bits and some flash and a little philosophy............some people say that three kata are not enough, I say they are extravagant in the extreme.but anymore are just worthless as you either cover the same ground or introduce irrelevant things....I practice some pretty flash stuff, but I always do my basics my bitch slaps my palm heels and my shutos....I even throw knives :D .which I really enjoy, but I know their relevance.which in my culture is limited......I will say something about Bikinis also. Have you noticed that young men nowadays don't stare at women in Bikinins or tight shorts :? .....when I was younger I couldn't keep my pistol in my pants..............same is true even now, although I take longer to aim at the target :lol: ..maybe the younger males are playing it cool


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:17 pm 
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delete - irrelevant :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:07 pm 
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Kata: Principles and Application

This is a great thread with excellent points.

Here is my perspective and something I am sure not everyone will care for.

First:

I agree that kata are the library of the principles that are the foundation of Uechi Ryu.

Kata should be a tactile experience as you feel each and every movement expressing the principles you believe in and are aware of at that time. As you learn more your Kata will, or should, evolve to include more.

Kata are ever evolving for this reason. When you begin getting the proper foot in front and moving the right direction can be a challenge so using the six harmonies, gravitational alignment and the Qua really won’t be in the discussions as you learn the Kata. But as you learn you expand your knowledge of the principles and therefore the Kata should evolve to reflect that change.

I posted a thread earlier that if you express your principles in each move then (at that moment) there is really only one way to perform the movement – in Kata. Application (which I will address in a moment) is situational so any alteration or adaptation is required.

Now different people will have different abilities and levels of knowledge of principles or even different beliefs in what works therefore please understand I am not saying there is only one way to perform a movement – I am saying there is only one way for each and every person to perform a Kata movement a that moment IF they are properly expressing the principles of the Kata.

Second:

While every kata is a library of principles I believe Uechi Kata are compiled from movements that worked in application. I think that someone somewhere said hey this guy tried to do this to me and I did this and it worked really well I should try and remember that movement.

So, while I believe the Uechi Kata express principles, lines, movement etc I do believe they were designed from fighting.

Third:

My second point then has to address why so many applications we see are not … hmmm .. optimal.

Before I give my opinion on this I want to express that anyone trying to find ways to use the principles of a Kata in application is on the right path and should be commended.

I will hold off and finish with what some may take offence to so as not to distract from the next point.

Applications must be subject to the scientific approach.

You come up with you theory of what you think you will face – are you preparing this Bunkai for sport, for self defence or for combat. Each of those three things will come at you differently.

You come up with the response that you think will work based on something from the Kata – remembering that in application the principles do and should flow to adapt to the situation.

Then, and this is the important part, you begin to experiment against increasing levels of resistance until you see if what you thought might work fails miserably or works well.

Then you take progress to more and more alive training where it has to be able to be expressed spontaneously in response to the situation when you don’t know it is going to happen.

I watched a clip the other day (I will not say where or what) and it was supposed to reflect a Bunkai for Sanchin. It was embarrassing and had they offered even the least resistance they would have known what they were doing did not work.

Finding out something you thought might work doesn’t isn’t a failure if it happens in the dojo – only when it happens in the street.

So I love exploring the kata for applications.

OKAY why do I feel so many of the applications are impractical and hard to find attacks where they actually work well?

There is an old video clip of a dojo I think in Wakayama, I am sure most have seen it. I won’t try to say for sure where or who because I am bound to be wrong and corrected but it is old.

There are some great things in but at one point the movement in Seisan after the elbow strike Wauke, Boshiken, Nukite where you pivot step Wauke hammer fist is being discussed by an older gentleman and I think Master Tomoyose.

In the clip Master Tomoyose is showing that you Pivot, then Step, then Wauke, then Hammer Fist.

The older gentleman is looking at him and then IN ONE ACTION pivots steps waukes and hammer fist.

OKAY so when I learned Seisan Bunkai many years ago the attacker stepped in with a right punch, we stepped BACK did a Wauke and he conveniently waited while we then hammer fisted him.

When I asked why we are stepping back when in the Kata we pivot and step forward I was told that in Kata you step forward and in application you step back – that has never made any sense to me.

NOW if I am facing the guy and as he punches I try to step forward to Wauke then I eat a punch so stepping back seems preferable.

HOWEVER if I am NOT facing him but he is attacking from my left side with any right handed strike and I do ONE ACTION to pivot step Wauke and hammer fist then the Kata’s way of moving works just fine in application.

SO here is my opinion: The training became the way.

I addressed this earlier in that trying to teach all the Kata principles to a person just trying to figure out if their left or right foot is in front – is a waste of time.

The principles in kata are built layer by layer and the Kata evolves to fit the new information.

In addition I believe there were two major shifts in how Kata was taught.

Originally an entire Kata was rarely performed. The individual segments were shown in application then worked as separate movements. This is one of the reasons I believe Uechi Kata evolved application to Kata and not Kata to application.

The second change was moving from teaching one person a Kata to teaching a group of people a Kata.

This required shifting from moving to moving to a count.

I was told a long time ago by a Uechi Senior that he had been told by one of the old Okinawan Uechi Masters that Uechi lived in the transitions.

Look at the move I described in Seisan. Teaching a group of people at a basic level you break it down into steps = Pivot, then Step, then Wauke then hammer fist. You also have to do it to a count so they all are moving in coordination or else they hammer fist the person beside them.

But at some point that training was to shift to the way described in older clips where the movements are done in transition and as one action.

It is exceptionally hard to find a real attack done with full resistance and no cooperation where a step by step action will actually work.

Act in movement and strike as you use your Wauke to avoid (or to strike) works just fine.

Understand this isn’t to say teaching step by step is wrong as I said before if the person doesn’t even know which foot is to move then combining a pivot step Wauke strike is WAY BEYOND their learning capabilities at that time.

BUT if that early training becomes the way then people will struggle to find applications that are anywhere near real.

Striking as you move is what you have to do in real life, so it has to be in the applications, so it has to (eventually) be in the Kata.

I believe that not only should you learn MORE of the Uechi Kata as you progress in training (rank) but you should relearn them at a higher level of performance.

BUT this is just my opinion, so take it in or think I am out to lunch it is all up to the reader.

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Last edited by Rick Wilson on Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Good post, Rick.

I think it was GEM(?) who said something to the effect: You don't want to practice like a Shodan your whole life.

Similar to a remark one sometimes hears in the working environment: Joe-such-such has one year of experience 20 times.

But, to each his own, as long as the person is happy doing it and never needs it for real.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:08 am 
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100% correct, Henry.

I not here to tell anyone how they should train, I am just expressing my opinion. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Interesting conversation indeed and it is good to see a variety of opinions, which of course reflect the individual's belief system and experience.

As to 'kata applications' e.g. 'bunkai'…I put this question to Walter Mattson 10th Dan, who trains under Takara sensei. His views are that one of the important aspects of kata is the emblazoning of defensive concepts along with the more 'mundane' if you will…of the bunkai applications we see, which are just a 'roving finger' on the wall.

To me, the most critical aspect of what we do in practice, is the 'emblazoning' …ingraining…programming…operant conditioning…there goes the same word again…of your practice in your subconscious mind…which has a mind of its own…have I said this enough times?

Here's one example…if you practice to constantly react to an assault and to block a punch, especially if your block is against a punch that never gets thrown in the streets, such as a chambered karate straight punch, instead of practicing the block against the most common street punches…well, you run a pretty good chance to get your clock cleaned.

But should you really train to block before you counter, over and over?

Here's something of interest to me, anyway
Quote:
Get rid of the attacker/defender dichotomy. Burn it out of your head. Refuse to train it. If there must be an attacker and a defender, be the attacker. Hurt him so he can't fight back.
The better perspective, the winning perspective, is to see things as the sociopath does—assume everyone's on equal footing and act accordingly. Everyone's an attacker, everyone is going for the win, everyone is willing to inflict horrible, body-breaking injury to get it.

He might start it but you're going to finish it by attacking him. Not by defending yourself. Defender and victim are almost always synonymous; but then so is attacker and winner.

--Chris Ranck-Buhr
TFT Master Instructor

Will we operate differently in a real fight, other than the way we train? We like to think so, but I would not bet my life on it.

So what does this got to do with kata applications working or not working?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:08 pm 
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I agree Van - many ways to look at it.

In my mind all applications are a way to explore the use of principles rather than "if he does this - You do this."

From this exploration you can go to alive training where, as Laird said, you find your Kata within the fight.

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